Ronson
But no, I do believe that fair elections are behind us. I just hope the person appointed president surprises his or her master and does some good at least.

So who is orchestrating the disenfranchisement of the entire country?

It came down to ONE state, both times, Vindibudd.

And the people in charge of counting the votes and making the final decisions those days? Former BUSH campaigners.

SpANG
It came down to ONE state, both times, Vindibudd.

And the people in charge of counting the votes and making the final decisions those days? Former BUSH campaigners.

Ronson is saying that there is no such thing as a fair election anymore, well if that is the case, then the entire country is disenfranchised at election time. I don't see how you can disagree with this.

Vindibudd

SpANG
It came down to ONE state, both times, Vindibudd.

And the people in charge of counting the votes and making the final decisions those days? Former BUSH campaigners.

Ronson is saying that there is no such thing as a fair election anymore, well if that is the case, then the entire country is disenfranchised at election time. I don't see how you can disagree with this.

I disagree. The entire country wasn't disenfranchised at election time. Just a few million racially and politically profiled Americans in key states.

Polling areas were closed, people were turned away, lied to on the phone about WHEN the election was, etc. etc.

In fact, it really only comes down to turning over the results in just a few key precincts, not just states.

But it isn't just Bush people, and it isn't just Republicans. It's people in the media spreading disinformation campaigns as well.

SpANG
Polling areas were closed, people were turned away, lied to on the phone about WHEN the election was, etc. etc.

Dude. An election can't be called fair if there are shenanigans, and if the election is not fair, then everyone loses on the principle of the thing.

Vindibudd

SpANG
Polling areas were closed, people were turned away, lied to on the phone about WHEN the election was, etc. etc.

Dude. An election can't be called fair if there are shenanigans, and if the election is not fair, then everyone loses on the principle of the thing.

True enough. I wouldn't argue that point.

Vindibudd
He also isn't an America should cut itself off from the rest of the world U.S. Congressman parading around like an actual conservative.

Funny how "imperialist" and "conservative" became synonymous. Like many things that are wrong with the modern GOP, it was liberal catchphrase bashing that Bush turned into political reality.

SpANG
Polling areas were closed, people were turned away, lied to on the phone about WHEN the election was, etc. etc.

More significantly, Diebold machines with no paper trail counted many of the votes.

TitanOne

SpANG
Polling areas were closed, people were turned away, lied to on the phone about WHEN the election was, etc. etc.

More significantly, Diebold machines with no paper trail counted many of the votes.

Actually, Diebold played a less significan roles than what SpANG mentioned. It was part of it, but a very small part.

Add to that the concerted effort by republicans to purge voter rolls (I believe it has been done to 4 states so far, and climbing) without notifying those purged AND purging a good chunk of legitimate voters and you get the perfect storm.

With the purges, and the things SpANG mentioned, hundreds if not thousands of legitimate votes never even made it to the Diebold machines in the first place.

Then they did the "provisional ballots", none of which have ever been counted (which is the standard practice with "absentee ballots" as well. They are only counted if the election is a draw or extremely close. So soldiers out of their region never have their votes count,for example).

Ohio just recently "accidentally" destroyed all of these ballots, so we will never know if it could have made a difference in the election.

The push for national IDs is still strong in the southern states, allegedly for preventing illegal aliens from voting (which they statistically never do), but with the added bonus that those ignorant of current events will not have this ID come election day, and that the poor won't bother getting one because it costs money.

The biggie is the push in California to split the electoral votes to reflect the proportions of the popular votes. While I would heartily agree with that if the entire nation did it, with only California doing it it becomes a giveaway to the Republicans that will prevent ANY Democrat from winning the presidency. And that isn't even a crime or a dirty trick, as California can distribute electoral votes any way they choose. Right now, whether it will be a special referendum next summer depends on whether the request was legally submitted, not on whether it is a valid question.

While the computers are a problem because of machine glitches as well as potential fraud, the old fashioned dirty tricks and legal and illegal shenanigans are far more effective because it prevents voting in the first place.

Unfortunately, there are good things that could come from a national ID. But using it for voting amounts to a poll tax for the very reason you mentioned -- the poor won't be able to afford it, and won't pay it even if they have the money, using it for other things -- like food.

In essence, you bring back the poll tax. So much for progress.