Hey no hard feelings, I was just a little taken aback is all! Don't worry though, Roy's a nice guy and I think he'd appreciate the feedback! Sorry if I got a little harsh myself!

Timethief
You are absolutely right, Amelius, and I had a comment on the subject ready, but then I just wimped out. I was afraid the readers, or even Roy himself (in his villain role) would just tear me to pieces. Also, I didn't feel "qualified" to speak about someone else's creative process to their face, not having a comic of my own. So I decided to see if I could find some kindred spirits in the open arena of opinion that is the forums, or if I was the only one bothered by that, because so far all I had read was praise. I was expecting, based on past experience, that only a couple of people would comment, since my older topics have not gotten much of a response.

Never feel unqualified to offer your advice just because you don't have a comic, your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. after all, comics are written for their readers, not for other artists! I admit that sometimes I'm afraid of how to voice my opinion, but since I have such a wide variety of tastes in comics sometimes I can be a little hard to disappoint! That is, I can be a tad bit picky at times but I judge things case by case rather than holding say a strip comic to the same standards of a graphic novel, which some of the self-appointed critics in the review forums tend to do. But not having a comic of your own doesn't mean you don't know what you're talking about too, so if anyone tells you otherwise there's some select words you can tell them! :)

Timethief
Never in my wildest dreams I thought I would cause a commotion, and certainly it wasn't my intent to offend anyone. But I needed to address the issue, and it was very difficult to do that without it looking like a direct attack. I kinda realize now that it came out looking like a sneak attack, and I'm sorry.

Aw, that's okay, I wasn't really "offended" per se, just a little...well, shocked is all, haha! I have posted more in this thread than like any other thread, you certainly got me out of lurk mode and that's quite the accomplishment! (Often times when I say things in this forum, people misunderstand me and start yelling at me :( and no attempts to explain myself works! Waaah!)

timethief
However, I do believe this topic started a very healthy discussion. Just how far you can go with filler stuff without turning people off? Where is the line beyond which you just lose your direction? When do you start considering doing an "extras" comic? I do believe they are valid issues, and I just happened to use some actual examples.

I agree, 'tis a good topic and now that we've moved past my initial gripes (hehe) I hope that people will chime in! I think more than 2 pages in a row of filler on a slow updating comic is kinda frustrating, especially since the effort someone puts into filler could likely have been spent actually producing a page. I can forgive it when it's entertaining filler, but too much is when it's half-hearted or some text that says the place is being held or whatever. I'd rather someone post old art or something than update just to tell me they aren't updating! It's such a tease!

timethief
I saw that Charby was killed today, ending the whole event. It did feel a little abrupt, but at this point I'm not surprised about it, I just thought Roy had gotten in a hurry to make room for something else that caught his fancy. I think he devised a very effective marketing gimmick that surely got him a lot of readers, I just feel it got out of hand.

Yeah, it ended up being 4 pages rather than 5, but I can't complain!
He had to go back to his day job so he can't update as much anymore too. To be fair, he is aware that the Batman storyline sank his ratings too, I heard them discuss it on his podcast. He's often trying out different things though and I say more power to it! ^_^ I can't help but be supportive of anything that doesn't encourage trolling to get page hits, mostly because I was a victim of such only like a year ago. And that really, really sucked!

Amelius, sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were being a hypocrit, I was actually trying to say (in an obviously overly wordy and unclear way) that you shouldn't be apologising for criticism of Thief of Times comment, as criticism of what he said is just as valid as his criticism of VND.
Does that make any sense at all?
I feel its getting harder and harder to explain the more ways I type it!

Haha! Harkovast, I know the feeling exactly! Don't worry though, that was my mistake! ^_^ (don't worry, you didn't give that implication, I just got confused!)

I actually should apologize for the double/triple posting, I kinda thought someone would have posted in the time it took me to type all those out!

Maybe they people are just taking their time before they post, so they can think of something REALLY awful to say about VND (kidding!)

I'm usually not on the forum, but people who goes into long rants and bitching behind a Authors back, is afraid of the authors respons (and the fans) and has absolutely No Comic to show off for himself, should Shut the Hell Up.

You don't like his comic? Fine. But don't make a long thread about how he should do this and that and not this and that,when YOU can't do any better yourself,Timethief. Come back when you've made a comic of your own and make it over 100 pages long,then we'll talk.

from a creator's standpoint, i'll tell ya this right now.i know it can be frustrating when a comic slows down, and i'll try my hardest not to be biased becuase boy Roy Duncan and Amy Hankins are friends of mine. but this is a site where we work for free, and everything we do is from our own pure WILL. sometimes we want to have a little fun with what we do and we're entitled to do so. also sometimes people just loose a little momentum. we're not machines you just pump a quarter into and something pops out.this shit, ESPECIALLY these two comics you've mentioned, have a LOT of work put into them. if you're going to get so angry about it, it'd be appreciate if you kept that in mind and held a little respect. understand?

And so, the flaming begins. It took much longer than I thought.

Though timethief's attitude was negative in the original post you're just coming across as worse Catya and PIT. This was a pretty thought provoking thread, and I'm sure there's ways you could give your opinion without getting defensive and outright flaming, others did.

I think making your own comic puts a POV on things, but someone not having one themselves doesn't invalidate the opinion. If anything it's worth more because the majority of your readers do not have webcomics, they expect your quality updates like clockwork and don't understand why you deny them another installment for things that deter from the story.

Personally I'd have to agree with timethief, I don't like fillers or side comics either lol! But i do understand why they're done and usually check back in a few updates later when it's over.

Catya
Come back when you've made a comic of your own and make it over 100 pages long,then we'll talk.

That's not too cool man.
---------------

It's good to have an open discussion about this sort of thing as long as people are civil.

Hahah, and I know that the person people were mentioning in this thread has bitched behind people's backs about things too, so no one is immune to that OK? Petty jealousies and problems we have with other's work are just as much a part of comic making as the good stuff. NO one is immune from that. At least in threads like this people try and discuss an idea and not a person. :)

--------------

I don't like looking at side stuff at all myself. It ruins the rhythm of the work.
But for my own comic I've done a sort of a side comic that has stretched out for a whole year (because I'm slow on updates now). I tried to integrate it into the story, while still making it completely different. When it comes to that sort of project people need the freedom to do it because otherwise you burn out. You have to be able to try new things, or just stop doing anything at all.

Catya, I'm afraid I have to completely disagree!
Just because someone "cant do better" does not mean they lose their right to an opinion.

I think the war in Iraq made no sense, but I suppose since I dont have an army or a country of my own, I "cant do any better" so I cant have an opinion about that?

I've seen movies but Uwe Boll that were unbearably dreadful, but since I cant make movies of my own, I "cant do any better" so I cant have an opinion about that either?

Whether or not someone disgrees with timethief, telling him he is not qualified to speak about something is silly, boardering on offensive.

I think TimeThief made valid points, he just worded it in an harsh way.

About the unwritten rule... I stopped posting in the "did you just update" thread about halfway through Din Krakatau becasue I kept checking the thread at wrong times. Mainly, right after someone posted an update for a comic that I could neither like visually nor storywise (which doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, I just didn't like them). Facing the dilemma of either lying ("hey, nice comic, man") or taking away the opportunity for someone else to say something nice about it ("I'm sorry but I can't really comment on this one as blah blah blah here's my update") OR checking the thread later, I always opted for the third option.

And then I usually forgot to check the thread again on the same day, heh. So yeah, I stopped updating there.

timethief
And so, the flaming begins. It took much longer than I thought.

Skullbie
Though timethief's attitude was negative in the original post you're just coming across as worse Catya and PIT

i dont see how i was flaming him, i really dont at all.

i merely gave my point of view as a comic creator. if i seemed angry, well it's becuase 1, i know the people he's talking about and it's natural for me to be a little upset about it, and 2, it just seemed a little ignorant to think someone doing this for free would be so devoted to pleasing readers. not to say people dont enjoy having fans, but dont expect us to be Dc or Marvel here. sometimes people just slow down, or find another site or take another direction. it's just what happens.

i admit i didnt read through this post very throughly at first, and i didnt see that you apologized Thief, and that's commendable. thank you. but i also know this isnt the first time this type of thing has come up and i guess i wanted to put it out there not just for Timethief, but for anyone else. like i said, i do understand it does get frustrating when a comic you like starts to lag or go off track. and i do believe as a reader yeah, you have the right to tell the person you dont like it, just as the person has the right to listen to you or not. that's why we have feed back. but i was just saying. keep it in mind that we're people too.

and i do see that you guys were having your own conversations and things had mended a bit, so i'm sorry if i threw things off corse again. but that was just my two cents.

as for Catya, since she doesnt come on here often and might not come back to this,so i'll just say i know her and her heart's in a good place, though she was very punishing, i think she'd take a step back and apologize and hope we could all just get over it and move on. like i said, she doesnt come around these parts much and probably doesnt realize this is one of the few communities on the net where people can actually have intelligent debates and conversations without flinging shit at eachother all the time. so anyways, we can just move on now.

PIT_FACE
so anyways, we can just move on now.

Word.

harkovast
Catya, I'm afraid I have to completely disagree!
Just because someone "cant do better" does not mean they lose their right to an opinion.

No,he can say whatever he wants. I'm just saying that if someone complains about someone elses artwork/comics,and that person doesn't have any comics to show off for himself,he really donesn't know what it's like to create a comic and to keep feeding the readers with updates,pages,strips or even fillers and try to make them happy with the comic.

As Pit_Face said,he can move on now.

Well I do a comic and I cant stand filler!

Okay, lets more on!

harkovast
Okay, lets more on!

Did you just call her a Moron?

J/K :D

I'm just trying to start more trouble.

you're all morons

i find it funny how timetheif wanted to talk about how webcomics veer off the story line with fillers and other stuff, and used villian next door as an example. and then how several people jump on his case with using vnd as an example.


now stuff, i hate it when the author bitches about losing pageviews when they don't update or throw in fillers. people aren't there to see what you do everyday.
you know why you're losing pageviews and you should own up to it.

i remember this happened to some other webcomic, not here on the duck.

Zaymac-Damn! You cracked my code! At least you haven't picked up on the coded messages I write about you....

Nickguy- Truer words have never been spoken!

Joel- watch as I get back on topic!
I've decided filler is NOT a bad thing.
Why?
Because filler is just putting up some art until you can do the proper page. This is perfectly reasonable and does no harm. It can be helpful, it lets fans know you have not forgotten them etc.
When you leave the 'filler' in place after the next update though, it is not filler anymore.
It is just another page of your comic.
A stupid page that distracts from the story and breaks the dramatic flow.
Once you have posted the page that was delayed that required filler, remove the filler!
Leaving it in place is like if the tv company had problems and put up the "sorry for the loss of signal message" but then when they release the shows on DVD, they leave in the message, so everyone watching it later will have to sit through the bit where there was no show!
Yeah you missed an update so put something up for the fans, good for you! But don't leave it there forever!

Also Joel, you should say the name of the web comic you are thinking of! I want to know if I should jump on your case for using someone I like as an example!

harkovast
Joel- watch as I get back on topic!
I've decided filler is NOT a bad thing.
Why?
Because filler is just putting up some art until you can do the proper page. This is perfectly reasonable and does no harm. It can be helpful, it lets fans know you have not forgotten them etc.
When you leave the 'filler' in place after the next update though, it is not filler anymore.
It is just another page of your comic.
A stupid page that distracts from the story and breaks the dramatic flow.
Once you have posted the page that was delayed that required filler, remove the filler!
Leaving it in place is like if the tv company had problems and put up the "sorry for the loss of signal message" but then when they release the shows on DVD, they leave in the message, so everyone watching it later will have to sit through the bit where there was no show!
Yeah you missed an update so put something up for the fans, good for you! But don't leave it there forever!

Also Joel, you should say the name of the web comic you are thinking of! I want to know if I should jump on your case for using someone I like as an example!

i didn't say it's bad to put up a filler. what i meant it's bad to put up a filler and complain about how your page views dipped.

also i would name the webcomic if i remembered it.
i was reading on an article that was talking about the webcomic. i also forgot the article because it was like two years back. :/
i think it was one of those review sites. or could have been somethingawful or encyclopedia dramatica.











oh yea, it was Harkovast, that silly puts up fillers everyday!
j/k

Imagine how depressing that would be....

If you put up real pages but everyone thought they were so crappy that they assumed they were filler!

I don't know, I have mixed opinions about putting up filler, even temporarily. If it's something new, it gives the impression that you've got time to work on other things, just not the comic most of your readers are actually hoping to see. Putting up older stuff that you didn't have to take time out to do is better, but again should hopefully never replace an update.

As creators, we like to say "well our readers should be sympathetic, we do this as a hobby." The reality is that readers often are not. They are consumers of our product, not our friends. Dedicated consumers will have more patience, but I think the vast majority of anyone's readers are people who enjoy the comic casually but won't want to put up with things like continual lateness or lots of filler. For the same reasons, I also think an element of what Catya is saying is wrong- maybe readers don't have any conception of "what it's like to create a comic" and try to meet its demands. But they still have every right to complain when a comic doesn't live up to some expectation it's set - inconsistent updates, a big deviation in story type, etc. (Saying "well you just don't understand how it is" never, ever won anyone over. :])

If we want to be taken seriously, professionally, we can't lose that apparent focus and start deviating into long side stories, getting lots of guest artists, always being late, etc. Doing those kinds of things will forever be the mark of a hobbyist. If someone's okay with being seen as a hobbyist that's fine- but I've seen lots of webcomic people complaining about how they're not taken seriously and they don't seem to realize that a lot of it is their own doing. As others have also said in this thread- it's fine to do that stuff, but accept the impact that may have on your comic and its readers.

skoolmunkee
If it's something new, it gives the impression that you've got time to work on other things, just not the comic most of your readers are actually hoping to see.

Yeah, I've seen this in quite a lot of comics where character bios pages, extra covers, pinups etc are posted excessively and it just gives the vibe that the author is not interested in continuing the actual story at all.

Having several cartoon and comic book series failures to my name I want to point out that just because one is capable of producing a work this does not mean that one understands what is or is not Good Stuff!

To an extent, the process of creativity remains a mystery even if one is an art school graduate. You can learn formulas and follow strict guidelines and be relatively safe -- and perhaps bored out of your skull. Or you can follow your gut and strike out totally on your own and trust to an artistic instinct that may or may not actually be on the money.

I have studied many webcomic successes over the years and have noted that for the most part they stick to basic principles of good story telling or reliable delivery of gags. Those that produce story lines take up the next one very shortly after finishing the preceding one. As filler material they tend to utilize one off gag strips where their main characters engage in meaningless silliness. You can almost 'hear' the cartoonist catching his or her breath in preparation for beginning another long story series WITH a beginning and middle and end.

The failures -- on the other hand -- do tend to be those cartoonists who lose focus and begin wandering off into uncharted territory of filler strips and endlessly meaningless gag strips and so there is definitely something to the criticism delivered by the author of this particular thread.

The problem, however, is that just because one can produce a cartoon or comic series does not mean that one was MEANT to do this. You can have the entire required skills set and still not really be a good enough cartoonist. Perhaps you really should have been a novelist or short story writer or poet or portrait painter instead and are working outside of your natural field of art.

Some of us really are not by nature meant to do the things that we do. I myself an various sorts of artists in that I am a wood carver and a sketch artist and an essayist and am probably not really cut out to be a successful cartoonist even though I keep trying. It is very difficult for me to set out with a predetermined game plan in cartooning and then follow through with it from beginning to end WITHOUT losing either interest or faith in what I am doing.

You can have, as a cartoonist, the very best of intentions and still ultimately blow chunks.

Anyway, that's my two cents worth.

Skoolmunkee, that sounded spookily like you were agreeing with me.

Are you allowed to do that?

Do you want me to say something really stupid now, so you can tell me I'm wrong and set the universe right again?

"I think comics should be drawn entirely using egg white, AND NOTHING ELSE!"

CharleyHorse
Some of us really are not by nature meant to do the things that we do. I myself an various sorts of artists in that I am a wood carver and a sketch artist and an essayist and am probably not really cut out to be a successful cartoonist even though I keep trying. It is very difficult for me to set out with a predetermined game plan in cartooning and then follow through with it from beginning to end WITHOUT losing either interest or faith in what I am doing.

You can have, as a cartoonist, the very best of intentions and still ultimately blow chunks.

Wow, CharleyHorse, this is my fear. The idea that the cards have been stacked against me from the get-go, or even the idea that this could happen to ANYONE. If someone is truly passionate about their craft (be it comics, computers, basketball or any generic field) then shouldn't they be able to master it with hard work?

I think in order to have a talent for something, you have to first have a keen interest in it, which compels you to keep trying and trying. When I was little, no one was like, 'she's a naturally gifted artist' or anything, but the other day some guy was looking at a painting of mine and said, 'this kind of talent can't be taught.' Well I think it can be self-taught, obviously, since I wasn't some wunderkind elementary schooler. It just takes practice. (But not like, drawing the same stick figure over and over. Using references, figuring out anatomy, doing still lives, etc.)

Charleyhorse, if you were really, really intent on becoming a comics sensation, wouldn't you use a nicer program like photoshop to do your comic, and focus on putting in backgrounds? (and save the comic in a higher quality format, to avoid the pixelization/ quality degradation?) Of course I'm not picking on you, I'm just saying that the things that might be inhibiting your comic from becoming more popular are effort-based, not talent-based.

The good thing is that if you put effort into fewer but higher-quality pages, rather than more but lower-quality pages, you'd probably become more successful.

Unfortunately, it looks like you're going to take a hiatus, but when you come back to your comic maybe you can focus on these.

Anyway, I think that only a spare few people are "naturally" great at art without having to work at it. And those people are lame, too; they didn't work hard, they're like the trust fund kids who inherit everything they own and don't understand work and worth. It's character-building to go against "nature" and be who you wanna be!

Kristen Gudsnuk
Wow, CharleyHorse, this is my fear. The idea that the cards have been stacked against me from the get-go, or even the idea that this could happen to ANYONE. If someone is truly passionate about their craft (be it comics, computers, basketball or any generic field) then shouldn't they be able to master it with hard work?

I donno. Dirty Harry had a great quote: "A man's got to know his limitations". Simple willingness to do something doesn't mean you actually can. Take basketball for instance. I could spend every waking hour of my life shooting hoops, exercising, and hyping myself up as a basketball player, but that won't change the fact that I'm not physically built to play basketball well, at least not on a professional level. No matter how hard I try, no matter how much I want it, I can never even approach the skill level of even the least of the professional players, much less Kobe or Jordan. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that I can't go out and play a little 3 on 3 with a couple of friends. If you approach everything you do in life as something you should be able to master eventually, why would you even get out of bed? The folly of expecting to become the best at anything, much less everything, would become a major let-down. If mere determination was enough then wouldn't there be more Leonardo da Vinci's, more Tiger Woods', more Ludwig van Beethoven's, more Mark Twain's? Wouldn't exceptional work become commonplace? To strive to be the best is a great thing, to expect to be the best is foolish.

Does this mean I think that CharlieHorse should throw in the towel? No. I'd like to see him get back in the game. Chuck's a good guy and a great writer, I really think he is capable of producing a solid comic.

Wordweaver_three
Simple willingness to do something doesn't mean you actually can. Take basketball for instance. I could spend every waking hour of my life shooting hoops, exercising, and hyping myself up as a basketball player, but that won't change the fact that I'm not physically built to play basketball well,

This is why drawing is so great, people of all ages, sizes, genders, backgrounds, and places can become great artists if they practice and learn-because that's all there is to becoming good at art. A drive to improve and explore new things, not some genetic crap like sports relies on.

I used to believe in talent and that people who didn't draw from a young age could not draw, i took a drawing 1 class at school and was proved wrong. There were quite a few people in that class that had never drawn in their life and now they draw incredibly thanks to that 'right side of the brain' book. This was just one semester of classtime too.

Of course they aren't going to become a 'master' until they spend many years practicing and trying new approaches. And even better art can have many many masters- there's no such thing as 'the best' artist only 'the masters'. I think you'll also find most masters now are over the age of 23, so if you're young you should realize they've had years to hone their skills.

Skullbie
entire post about drawing

I've been saying this for years. Its so very, very, very true!

harkovast
Skoolmunkee, that sounded spookily like you were agreeing with me.

Are you allowed to do that?

Do you want me to say something really stupid now, so you can tell me I'm wrong and set the universe right again?

"I think comics should be drawn entirely using egg white, AND NOTHING ELSE!"

When have I ever been mean to you. T_T That was not in the form of a question, because your answer would just be 'never!'


My chinese class was cancelled and isn't being run next year. So, I will see if they are offering any drawing classes maybe?