The only thing I find more irritating than good webcomics that suddenly stop updating is good webcomics that suddenly begin updating for anything except advancing the story. Comics that do that enter my "warning list" and, if they don't return to the main story in a reasonable time, they get unfaved. Recently, I have found two offenders in this respect: one, about a certain group of musicians, began posting fanart related to a fighting tournament or contest they were running at Deviantart. Fortunately, her character was eliminated in time for the comic to remain on my faves. But the most recent case has not only deviated from the main story in several occasions, it has actually climbed to the top ten thanks to one such detour. For the last few days, I've watched in sheer delight at how this particular comic slowly goes down the top ten. I'm actually cheering for the decline of one of my faves. Isn't it ironic?
What irks me the most is the way the author whines and bitches about his lack of page views every time his comic has a small decline, while simultaneously posting stuff like coffee ads, political campaign material, a Batman story (which was nice but should have been posted as an altogether different comic), a coloring book and a shock value-based Drunkduck in-joke. Anything but the main story for months.
I guess you all know who I'm talking about.
What I'm saying is that, I understand that webcomics are a vehicle for free self expression, and if the author's interests change in the middle of a story arc, this stuff is bound to happen. But I can't help but feel a bit insulted when it does. It's like the author doesn't really care about what the readers are expecting. A simple "I'm not interested in this stuff anymore" and subsequent removal of the comic would be nicer than turning it into a scrapbook, I think.
Have you witnessed a similar case? what do you think when it is obvious an author has changed his mind on what a comic is about?
going away - Comic Discussion (Print & Web!)
Focus, people.
timethief
at 12:37PM, April 30, 2009
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
lefarce
at 1:01PM, April 30, 2009
Someone
I guess you all know who I'm talking about.
I have no idea, mind sending me a link via PQ?
Someone
Have you witnessed a similar case? what do you think when it is obvious an author has changed his mind on what a comic is about?
It's just as bad when they have several comics running at once. Sure some people are capable of keeping it all going, but in most cases you can see how much each story suffers when the artist is pulling themselves in three or more directions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:33PM
NickGuy
at 2:44PM, April 30, 2009
lefarceSomeone
I guess you all know who I'm talking about.
I have no idea, mind sending me a link via PQ?
Someone
Have you witnessed a similar case? what do you think when it is obvious an author has changed his mind on what a comic is about?
It's just as bad when they have several comics running at once. Sure some people are capable of keeping it all going, but in most cases you can see how much each story suffers when the artist is pulling themselves in three or more directions.
yeah i learned that the hard way. I thought i could keep more than one book going, but i really learned to just focus on one book and get it done before moving on.
I also dislike it when a comic hasnt updated in a long time but then theyll update for something stupid like a christmas pic of their characters or something equally retarded, then go back to not updating.
"Kung Fu Komix IS...hardcore martial art action all the way. 8/10" -Harkovast
"Kung Fu Komix is that rare comic that is made with heart and love of the medium, and it delivers" -Zenstrive
"Kung Fu Komix is...so awesome" -threeeyeswurm
"Kung Fu Komix is..told with all the stupid exuberance of the genre it parodies" -The Real Macabre
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
lefarce
at 2:47PM, April 30, 2009
I think a lot of us have at some point tried to juggle more than what we can handle. I had quite a few going on at once and it's part of the reason my main comic got so terrible.
But I agree with the OP. I think if you just have wrote yourself into a hole, or you're just updating with trivial crap (like a chistmas picture as you said), it's probably time to just call it quits and move onto another project.
But I agree with the OP. I think if you just have wrote yourself into a hole, or you're just updating with trivial crap (like a chistmas picture as you said), it's probably time to just call it quits and move onto another project.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:33PM
harkovast
at 5:22PM, April 30, 2009
I love how no one here names names for who is the guilty party.
Villain next door (gasp! I said it!) did quite a clever plan. He did a thing that involved all the top ten comics, so all of them linked to him, earning him a massive amount of hits, temporarily.
Now inevitability hes declining down the rankings again.
Personally I get irritated if a comic posts more then a couple of filler pages.
I just hate filler!
Villain next door (gasp! I said it!) did quite a clever plan. He did a thing that involved all the top ten comics, so all of them linked to him, earning him a massive amount of hits, temporarily.
Now inevitability hes declining down the rankings again.
Personally I get irritated if a comic posts more then a couple of filler pages.
I just hate filler!
For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:43PM
Ryuthehedgewolf
at 5:49PM, April 30, 2009
harkovast
I love how no one here names names for who is the guilty party.
Villain next door (gasp! I said it!) did quite a clever plan. He did a thing that involved all the top ten comics, so all of them linked to him, earning him a massive amount of hits, temporarily.
Now inevitability hes declining down the rankings again.
Personally I get irritated if a comic posts more then a couple of filler pages.
I just hate filler!
For my comic now (well, I'm not counting the old versions of my comic :P) I haven't posted a single page of Filler yet.
Unless you count the picture I had up for a few days, but that wasn't really filler, because I had a page for that day, I just wanted people on DD to see it :3
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:16PM
NickGuy
at 5:53PM, April 30, 2009
I always try to schedule filler pages in between my normal updates. IMO, filler should never take the place of an update.
"Kung Fu Komix IS...hardcore martial art action all the way. 8/10" -Harkovast
"Kung Fu Komix is that rare comic that is made with heart and love of the medium, and it delivers" -Zenstrive
"Kung Fu Komix is...so awesome" -threeeyeswurm
"Kung Fu Komix is..told with all the stupid exuberance of the genre it parodies" -The Real Macabre
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
harkovast
at 5:57PM, April 30, 2009
My rule is, if it isn't a direct part of the story, I don't like to leave it up for longer then a week.
I just think anything that isn't plot is a distraction.
It would be like tuning in to an episode of a tv show and finding the episode is a music video featuring the characters instead.
I think its best avoided.
I just think anything that isn't plot is a distraction.
It would be like tuning in to an episode of a tv show and finding the episode is a music video featuring the characters instead.
I think its best avoided.
For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:43PM
lefarce
at 7:08PM, April 30, 2009
IIRC when Le Farce wasnt going to update on time I would tell people in advance. My way around it was I got an entire volume done (around 30-50 pages) before uploading, and then take a break between volumes for a month or so and post fan art during regular updates. As such I think I have maybe three or four filler pages max with fan art taking up the time slot for production.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:33PM
timethief
at 7:15PM, April 30, 2009
I think I'm actually pretty forgiving of this stuff. But for the record, these are the things I tolerate:
Holiday pages (Halloween, Christmas, New Year, Thanksgiving, that stuff)
Milestone pages (for a certain number of faves, page views or simply amount of pages)
A pinup after chapter/ episode endings
An occasional deviation from the tone or subject matter that lasts no more than two updates and is really funny.
However, if three consecutive updates are fluff like this I might begin to get cranky. I mean, people should seriously consider doing an "extras" book if they have so much of this stuff.
Holiday pages (Halloween, Christmas, New Year, Thanksgiving, that stuff)
Milestone pages (for a certain number of faves, page views or simply amount of pages)
A pinup after chapter/ episode endings
An occasional deviation from the tone or subject matter that lasts no more than two updates and is really funny.
However, if three consecutive updates are fluff like this I might begin to get cranky. I mean, people should seriously consider doing an "extras" book if they have so much of this stuff.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
literacysuks1
at 7:31PM, April 30, 2009
I try to stick the extras crap in between issues. Stuff like backup stories that are still in the comic's universe (usually) and fan art that I want more people than me to see. I feel like it doesn't derail the book too much that way since people know when to expect it and know when to expect the normal content again...it helps me build up my buffer too. I'm updating 3 times a week, so I feel like the occasional detour in between issues shouldn't be pissing people off too much.
that said, I really do get tired of a lot of random filler and distractions, especially when they're coming without warning.
that said, I really do get tired of a lot of random filler and distractions, especially when they're coming without warning.
Go read my superhero comic...because I told you to
http://www.drunkduck.com/Acrobat/
http://www.drunkduck.com/Acrobat/
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:35PM
Hyena H_ll
at 8:37PM, April 30, 2009
OMG Hark- that's "The Comic That Cannot Be Named"! You've summoned its unholy wrath by speaking its name! Now we're all dooooooooomed!
I'm not talkin' about VND because I've never read it. But re: crossovers in general, I don't tend to care for them. I like continuity, and I like well-developed universes, and it just seems kind of insulting to me when all the sudden in pop these characters from some comic I don't care about, for no apparent reason. It creates this dissonance- you know you're reading a comic and can't just enjoy getting caught up in the story. I mean, I've never heard a good explanation (other than backscratching or circle jerkin' on the authors' part) for a character from one universe to show up in another. This is actually why I stopped reading Marvel titles altogether- I got really disillusioned with that mid-90's crossover madness, where you had to buy 10 titles you didn't care about (X-Force? Really? Who the hell reads X-Force!?!) to follow the story.
I mean, I guess it's not unforgivable or anything, unless it drags on forever.
There's definitely been comics that I really enjoyed that changed in tone or had a really long sequence that I wasn't at all interested in. The one that comes to mind most recently is "Cwen's Quest"- I liked the comic because I liked the character interactions, and it was a little absurd, and had a premise I liked, and was funny- okay, cool. But that whole battle chapter just bored the hell outta me. Hopefully it'll return to how it was, because I do (did?) like it a whole lot.
I've done a couple holiday pages, but not in place of normal updates. I kinda bugs me that they're in there breakin' up the story... maybe I need to take 'em out; there's no reason to start an "extra" comic for like, 3 pages.
I'm not talkin' about VND because I've never read it. But re: crossovers in general, I don't tend to care for them. I like continuity, and I like well-developed universes, and it just seems kind of insulting to me when all the sudden in pop these characters from some comic I don't care about, for no apparent reason. It creates this dissonance- you know you're reading a comic and can't just enjoy getting caught up in the story. I mean, I've never heard a good explanation (other than backscratching or circle jerkin' on the authors' part) for a character from one universe to show up in another. This is actually why I stopped reading Marvel titles altogether- I got really disillusioned with that mid-90's crossover madness, where you had to buy 10 titles you didn't care about (X-Force? Really? Who the hell reads X-Force!?!) to follow the story.
I mean, I guess it's not unforgivable or anything, unless it drags on forever.
There's definitely been comics that I really enjoyed that changed in tone or had a really long sequence that I wasn't at all interested in. The one that comes to mind most recently is "Cwen's Quest"- I liked the comic because I liked the character interactions, and it was a little absurd, and had a premise I liked, and was funny- okay, cool. But that whole battle chapter just bored the hell outta me. Hopefully it'll return to how it was, because I do (did?) like it a whole lot.
I've done a couple holiday pages, but not in place of normal updates. I kinda bugs me that they're in there breakin' up the story... maybe I need to take 'em out; there's no reason to start an "extra" comic for like, 3 pages.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
DAJB
at 12:59AM, May 1, 2009
It seems to me that this is another area where typical gag-strips differ from true story-driven comics. Gag-strips can pretty much do what they want because, even if there is a story, it's usually secondary to getting a laugh and so it's less important if it's interrupted.
If the main driver of the comic is the story, however, then too many fillers can be annoying. If they're related to the story in some way (extra background info, for example) fillers can be very interesting. Purgatory and The Chronicles of Wyrden have both provided good examples of how it can be done well. If the fillers are totally unrelated, however, they just reinforce the idea that the creator no longer knows what to do with the comic.
For Shades , I always post bonus material in the BVC Scrap Book . I can see why some people don't do this, though. The number of readers who visit the scrap book is a very small percentage of the total readers for the main comic.
If the main driver of the comic is the story, however, then too many fillers can be annoying. If they're related to the story in some way (extra background info, for example) fillers can be very interesting. Purgatory and The Chronicles of Wyrden have both provided good examples of how it can be done well. If the fillers are totally unrelated, however, they just reinforce the idea that the creator no longer knows what to do with the comic.
For Shades , I always post bonus material in the BVC Scrap Book . I can see why some people don't do this, though. The number of readers who visit the scrap book is a very small percentage of the total readers for the main comic.
[..]
A WW2 fighter pilot, a First Century warrior queen and a prehistoric shaman. Oh, and their tailor. These are not your common-or-garden heroes! [..]
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
Skullbie
at 1:51AM, May 1, 2009
The only comic I know that does this frequently is pennie and aggie, the filler comics drive me insane even if they're about the story :/
I love seeing guest comics on peoples pages though, harbleville girly and anders loves maria had some great ones. It's nice to see the comic in another art style and fans make jokes about the irritations of the comic xP
I feel an odd attachment to my first comic even though i know the story is terrible and i could do much better, like the readers and characters deserve an end. It's harder to pack up and say 'not interested anymore kthxbai' since you keep hoping to fix it
I love seeing guest comics on peoples pages though, harbleville girly and anders loves maria had some great ones. It's nice to see the comic in another art style and fans make jokes about the irritations of the comic xP
I feel an odd attachment to my first comic even though i know the story is terrible and i could do much better, like the readers and characters deserve an end. It's harder to pack up and say 'not interested anymore kthxbai' since you keep hoping to fix it
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:47PM
skoolmunkee
at 2:13AM, May 1, 2009
In a comic I worked on 5-6 years ago I did a couple of crossovers, had guest artists in, put in references to people I knew, contrived to put contest winners into the comic somehow, etc. It sounds terrible listing them all like that, but at the time I was pretty new to webcomics and thought I was engaging with the community and trying to connect the comic to other comics. They were fun to do at the time, but...
Unfortunately when I came back to re-read those things later, they all stuck out like sore thumbs. Some of them I was actually embarrassed about so I removed them from the archives. The references fell out of date, or I felt like I was endorsing people/comics/things I no longer liked. Jumps to guest comics were jarring. Etc.
So, I pretty much resolved myself at that point never to put 'sidelines' into my comics like that again. They removed focus from the comic itself and became things I didn't want in my archive.
I don't have anything against 'sidelines' per say, but that's what they should be- on the side, not mixed in with the actual comic unless you can do it very well, and should never replace the actual comic itself.
Unfortunately when I came back to re-read those things later, they all stuck out like sore thumbs. Some of them I was actually embarrassed about so I removed them from the archives. The references fell out of date, or I felt like I was endorsing people/comics/things I no longer liked. Jumps to guest comics were jarring. Etc.
So, I pretty much resolved myself at that point never to put 'sidelines' into my comics like that again. They removed focus from the comic itself and became things I didn't want in my archive.
I don't have anything against 'sidelines' per say, but that's what they should be- on the side, not mixed in with the actual comic unless you can do it very well, and should never replace the actual comic itself.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:42PM
mlai
at 2:22AM, May 1, 2009
Hyena H_ll
There's definitely been comics that I really enjoyed that changed in tone or had a really long sequence that I wasn't at all interested in. The one that comes to mind most recently is "Cwen's Quest"- I liked the comic because I liked the character interactions, and it was a little absurd, and had a premise I liked, and was funny- okay, cool. But that whole battle chapter just bored the hell outta me.
I read the entirety of Cwen's Quest in one sitting, and the battle chapter did not seem out of place to me at all, in pacing, tone, or relevance to the overall plot. In fact it was the highlight of the archive. Goes to show, different strokes for different folks.
I just figured... a disowned princess out to build a kingdom for herself, and to take revenge on her father... how can such a storyline not have battles?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
Hyena H_ll
at 6:13AM, May 1, 2009
mlai
I read the entirety of Cwen's Quest in one sitting, and the battle chapter did not seem out of place to me at all, in pacing, tone, or relevance to the overall plot. In fact it was the highlight of the archive. Goes to show, different strokes for different folks.
I just figured... a disowned princess out to build a kingdom for herself, and to take revenge on her father... how can such a storyline not have battles?
Maybe it would read differently if I did it in one sitting instead of one per week.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
harkovast
at 11:52AM, May 1, 2009
I am all in favour of putting up funny things.
But just take them down afterwards and put them on your comics forum or something.
As Skoolmunkee said, when you go back and look at them they seem out of place, jarring and stupid.
For example, a Christmas special is pretty moronic when its not Christmas anymore!
But just take them down afterwards and put them on your comics forum or something.
As Skoolmunkee said, when you go back and look at them they seem out of place, jarring and stupid.
For example, a Christmas special is pretty moronic when its not Christmas anymore!
For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:43PM
Amelius
at 11:53AM, May 1, 2009
You know what helps? Instead of posting things behind the author's back, why not try and voice your opinion where it can be heard, like say, their comment section? That's what instant feedback is about after all. Silence is consent! Not every author on here lurks in the forums and sees what things people are saying about them behind their backs, after all. I consider Roy a friend and I can't help but feel a little disgusted by the notion that you'd be "delighted" over the comic's descent from the top ten list.
I'm sure you'll be equally "delighted" to know the last page of the "in-joke" is up though, he even cut it short!
It may have been filler-ish to you in the context that you're not personally attached to any top-ten list comics, but I for one appreciated the effort he went through to do a project involving the community instead of sitting in the forums and griping about who does and does not belong in a stupid top list. I thought it was a good experiment on the DD community and the power of word-of-mouth advertising as opposed to paying loads of money for ads.
The filler stuff and Argon Destroy's pages were paired with the origin story of the character, I thought it was a unique way to portray it with a coloring-book style. If that didn't float your boat then it can't be held against you, but to take pleasure in his sinking ratings? That's just not nice! :(
As to your point, I do find it a little jarring when I'm trying to read someone's back-arcives and there's 10 pages of filler art and fan art the author posted, it really takes you out of the story. I'd rather wait a few weeks for a new page or even get a half-hearted page than get a filler page, but I can excuse it when they're updating it like twice a day, one filler and one story (like VND was)
There's also been a few comics I read that decided to get on a soapbox about something and I just couldn't relate to the comic anymore because I felt like the author's agenda was now more important than the story being entertaining.
But really, if you're afraid of the author's fans getting on your case, why not PQ them? I get PQ's from people suggesting things all the time, and someone even started a critique thread in my forum that alerted me to a few weaknesses I needed to work on. After all, if people only react positively to their face but gripe about it to themselves, is that sending the right message to the author?
Things won't change if you don't speak up to the person that needs to hear it, instead a forum full of not-so-interested parties.
Plus, take into consideration that it's hard to get people to pay attention to your author's notes. I've had a hell of a time getting people to read my announcements or questions I've answered multiple times, and because someone gets excited by something and wants to share it, I can't fault them for drawing up a whole page even if it is "filler". People pay attention to pages more than notes after all.
I'm sure you'll be equally "delighted" to know the last page of the "in-joke" is up though, he even cut it short!
It may have been filler-ish to you in the context that you're not personally attached to any top-ten list comics, but I for one appreciated the effort he went through to do a project involving the community instead of sitting in the forums and griping about who does and does not belong in a stupid top list. I thought it was a good experiment on the DD community and the power of word-of-mouth advertising as opposed to paying loads of money for ads.
The filler stuff and Argon Destroy's pages were paired with the origin story of the character, I thought it was a unique way to portray it with a coloring-book style. If that didn't float your boat then it can't be held against you, but to take pleasure in his sinking ratings? That's just not nice! :(
As to your point, I do find it a little jarring when I'm trying to read someone's back-arcives and there's 10 pages of filler art and fan art the author posted, it really takes you out of the story. I'd rather wait a few weeks for a new page or even get a half-hearted page than get a filler page, but I can excuse it when they're updating it like twice a day, one filler and one story (like VND was)
There's also been a few comics I read that decided to get on a soapbox about something and I just couldn't relate to the comic anymore because I felt like the author's agenda was now more important than the story being entertaining.
But really, if you're afraid of the author's fans getting on your case, why not PQ them? I get PQ's from people suggesting things all the time, and someone even started a critique thread in my forum that alerted me to a few weaknesses I needed to work on. After all, if people only react positively to their face but gripe about it to themselves, is that sending the right message to the author?
Things won't change if you don't speak up to the person that needs to hear it, instead a forum full of not-so-interested parties.
Plus, take into consideration that it's hard to get people to pay attention to your author's notes. I've had a hell of a time getting people to read my announcements or questions I've answered multiple times, and because someone gets excited by something and wants to share it, I can't fault them for drawing up a whole page even if it is "filler". People pay attention to pages more than notes after all.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
harkovast
at 12:09PM, May 1, 2009
Amelius, I think there is an element on DD that people don't want to be critical of each other or complain about things in case they alienate people who might otherwise read their comic.
Even on this thread, everyone was doing an absurd "that comic, you know the one" thing rather then just saying what they mean.
At one point I left comments on peoples comics that were totally honest, praising what I liked and complaining about things I didn't like.
While a few people, to their credit, took this as a positive thing (Warped Wenger loved it, so hooray for them!) but a lot of people got really mad at me or felt I was discouraging up and coming comics etc.
Some felt that the comments was not the place to express my opinion...I guess its the place for mindless praise?
With regard to taking pleasure in another persons decline, it is not very nice, but when you put your work in the public arena you have to anticipate this.
It is not reasonable to put something out in the public domain and then complain if it gets negative reaction (even though it was worded in a harsh way.)
Villain next door should be pleased to have done something that provokes a reaction, and gets people talking. After all, this entire thread is basically now a "villain next door" discussion thread.
Even on this thread, everyone was doing an absurd "that comic, you know the one" thing rather then just saying what they mean.
At one point I left comments on peoples comics that were totally honest, praising what I liked and complaining about things I didn't like.
While a few people, to their credit, took this as a positive thing (Warped Wenger loved it, so hooray for them!) but a lot of people got really mad at me or felt I was discouraging up and coming comics etc.
Some felt that the comments was not the place to express my opinion...I guess its the place for mindless praise?
With regard to taking pleasure in another persons decline, it is not very nice, but when you put your work in the public arena you have to anticipate this.
It is not reasonable to put something out in the public domain and then complain if it gets negative reaction (even though it was worded in a harsh way.)
Villain next door should be pleased to have done something that provokes a reaction, and gets people talking. After all, this entire thread is basically now a "villain next door" discussion thread.
For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:43PM
zaymac
at 12:44PM, May 1, 2009
I've only posted two pieces of filler.
One, a filler comic after I got featured. Which I didn't feel too bad about, because it was basically a thanks to all my readers and DD.
But last Monday I put up a filler page of Tee Shirt designs. I just thought it would be good for getting some feedback.
I plan on taking it down when I update later. I kind of felt guilty like I was pimping wares. Which is not the intent, I just wanted to get some feedback for designs when I attend a con later this year.
It was just one of those things where I got kind of swamped with stuff and felt like I should put up something.
One, a filler comic after I got featured. Which I didn't feel too bad about, because it was basically a thanks to all my readers and DD.
But last Monday I put up a filler page of Tee Shirt designs. I just thought it would be good for getting some feedback.
I plan on taking it down when I update later. I kind of felt guilty like I was pimping wares. Which is not the intent, I just wanted to get some feedback for designs when I attend a con later this year.
It was just one of those things where I got kind of swamped with stuff and felt like I should put up something.
It's a Grizzly Bear battling Zombies. Do you need to know more?
DOLLAR STORE HAIRCUT A daily webcomic of unfunny.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:55PM
Hyena H_ll
at 12:47PM, May 1, 2009
It's one thing to give critical input on a comic- particularly if it's asked for. There are plenty of things that aren't entirely subjective- like the quality of art or clarity of writing. But I would never leave comments to the effect of "I really don't like where this story's going, or what that character's doing, etc."
For one, if I like a comic enough to read it, then I have respect for the creator's vision, even if certain parts don't appeal to me. And I would never expect a creator to compromise what they want to do with their comic just to please fans; that's when I start losing respect for a comic.
I think there's an unwritten DD rule that you don't criticize DD comics openly; I think this is both positive and negative. It does help keep the community more friendly, and deters people from constantly flaming popular comics just for being popular (OMG do I hate that!), or needlessly making fun of "bad" comics that someone who might not be the best artist is putting their heart and soul into.
But at the same time, I do think if a comic is regarded highly enough to be discussed- whether in a positive or negative light- then that shouldn't be forbidden. There's a difference between flaming or insulting a comic and having an intelligent discussion about parts of a comic we like and don't like- I know I'm not alone in wishing there was more discussions about particular comics (here on DD, on the rest of the web, and print). I think analyzing what is successful and what isn't in good and/or popular comics is critical to improving your own work.
But the key word there is intelligent discussion- taking for granted that civility and politeness goes with it. I think once someone starts ragging on a comic or being too mean, it creates this mob mentality where people feel free to throw fuel into the fire. I don't agree with that kind of discourse, if it can even be called that. But hell- my thinking on the matter is that bad publicity's better than no publicity. I'd rather get some kind of reaction, even if people hate my guts, then nothing at all.
Anyhow. That's just my humble opinion in regards to what Amelius posted, and not meant to condemn or condone any comments in this thread. Hopefully it ain't comin' off as bitchy or overly-defensive. (I'm niiiiiice, I swear I am!)
For one, if I like a comic enough to read it, then I have respect for the creator's vision, even if certain parts don't appeal to me. And I would never expect a creator to compromise what they want to do with their comic just to please fans; that's when I start losing respect for a comic.
I think there's an unwritten DD rule that you don't criticize DD comics openly; I think this is both positive and negative. It does help keep the community more friendly, and deters people from constantly flaming popular comics just for being popular (OMG do I hate that!), or needlessly making fun of "bad" comics that someone who might not be the best artist is putting their heart and soul into.
But at the same time, I do think if a comic is regarded highly enough to be discussed- whether in a positive or negative light- then that shouldn't be forbidden. There's a difference between flaming or insulting a comic and having an intelligent discussion about parts of a comic we like and don't like- I know I'm not alone in wishing there was more discussions about particular comics (here on DD, on the rest of the web, and print). I think analyzing what is successful and what isn't in good and/or popular comics is critical to improving your own work.
But the key word there is intelligent discussion- taking for granted that civility and politeness goes with it. I think once someone starts ragging on a comic or being too mean, it creates this mob mentality where people feel free to throw fuel into the fire. I don't agree with that kind of discourse, if it can even be called that. But hell- my thinking on the matter is that bad publicity's better than no publicity. I'd rather get some kind of reaction, even if people hate my guts, then nothing at all.
Anyhow. That's just my humble opinion in regards to what Amelius posted, and not meant to condemn or condone any comments in this thread. Hopefully it ain't comin' off as bitchy or overly-defensive. (I'm niiiiiice, I swear I am!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Kristen Gudsnuk
at 12:47PM, May 1, 2009
timethief
But the most recent case has not only deviated from the main story in several occasions, it has actually climbed to the top ten thanks to one such detour. For the last few days, I've watched in sheer delight at how this particular comic slowly goes down the top ten. I'm actually cheering for the decline of one of my faves. Isn't it ironic?
Amelius, don't take what timethief said out of context! It's actually a backhanded compliment-- when the ratings go back down it's because of the end of the alleged plugging(I don't read this comic) and the return to the normal storyline.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
Hyena H_ll
at 12:59PM, May 1, 2009
Kristen Gudsnuktimethief
But the most recent case has not only deviated from the main story in several occasions, it has actually climbed to the top ten thanks to one such detour. For the last few days, I've watched in sheer delight at how this particular comic slowly goes down the top ten. I'm actually cheering for the decline of one of my faves. Isn't it ironic?
Amelius, don't take what timethief said out of context! It's actually a backhanded compliment-- when the ratings go back down it's because of the end of the alleged plugging(I don't read this comic) and the return to the normal storyline.
Naw, "watching with sheer delight" as the comic drops in rank, and "cheering for the decline of" a comic are pretty rude things to say. It's hard to imagine that could be said in a "complimentary" context.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Amelius
at 1:00PM, May 1, 2009
Haha, truly spoken Harkovast! But I can't help but take things like this personal, after having had a few people whose works I respected talk trash about me in the forums as though I don't come in here and read them too...
I think it's rather up to the author sometimes regarding critical things, if they're the type that gets defensive over a justified and kind-hearted critique (like offering a little advice on anatomy for example) then their audience is going to be just as defensive, much to the detriment of any future improvement. I've made my readers aware that opinions are welcome, so while some people do seem afraid to say something, it's not really justified considering the amount of people who DO voice their dissatisfaction with something I might have done on a page without having the audience backlash to "protect" me! In fact the last couple times someone trolled me, most of them ignored it, I was quite proud of them! I admit it gets a little annoying when you have that one fan that's never pleased with anything and pesters you about incorrect anatomy when you're trying to go for a cartoon style on something, but that's better than someone who's too afraid to tell you they're unhappy with what you're doing and just gives up on your comic without so much as offering a reason why. A good friend of mine stopped reading my comic when it got a little dramatic for a short stint, which was fair, I just told him to hang on for a bit because it wouldn't last long and it wasn't supposed to be taken as serious as he was taking it :) But because he emailed me about it and told me his feelings, I kept it in mind for future updates. Sure, you don't want fans to write your comic for you, but reader feedback is a VERY important part of improvement. Without it I'd still be making scribble-chibis colored badly with photoshop!
The idea that everyone should mindlessly praise anyone does annoy me a fair bit, I think it's because of people that take it too far to the other extreme and will mercilessly rip into something just to be a jerk, and some people feel like they have to counteract this by being sycophants :\ People have to be a little evenhanded with these things, some artists do have delicate egos, and harping on someone won't help them improve. But being too soft helps no one!
Since I don't know what comments you left I can't really judge whether they were justified or not, but I'm certain they were and it's not right for the audience to gang up on another reader for not going with the crowd! You should remind them that the rating system does go from 1-5 for a reason, the comments are supposed to be feedback, not sucking up! I wouldn't be at the point I am today if someone had not long ago told me my character's hair was starting to look like plastic helmets :D it was little harsh at the time but entirely true, and I fixed that page that very day and ever since comments like that I've improved a LOT on things.
And it's true that people will say negative things when you post your material in the public's eye, and it's being a tad ignorant to think everyone will love your stuff to itty-bitty pieces, I just feel it's not right to talk about it behind someone's back instead of offering some advice. That's why I suggested PQ's instead of comments, since I do know that some rabid-fans will rip anyone apart that dares say bad things about their favoritest comic evar!
Also, since it involves a friend I did get a little defensive, sorry if I was a little harsh, please don't read that first post of mine in the "rar angry voice!" way, I am actually more laid-back than I sometimes sound. I also have a hard time separating the comic from the author at times, i think that's because I'm so entangled emotionally in my own works that it's hard to think of anyone else not being that way! O_o
Plus, I'd rather have people tell me negative things to my face. Walking in on a conversation where people are saying mean things about you because they didn't know you were there can scar you emotionally for life, so it really gets to me sometimes when I see it involving other people. I even got defensive of a comic I really didn't like at all last time someone started a thread similar to this! Of course, I also have an unrealistic expectation of people being nice to other people...which has instead lead to me being a tad bit of a misanthrope!
I think it's rather up to the author sometimes regarding critical things, if they're the type that gets defensive over a justified and kind-hearted critique (like offering a little advice on anatomy for example) then their audience is going to be just as defensive, much to the detriment of any future improvement. I've made my readers aware that opinions are welcome, so while some people do seem afraid to say something, it's not really justified considering the amount of people who DO voice their dissatisfaction with something I might have done on a page without having the audience backlash to "protect" me! In fact the last couple times someone trolled me, most of them ignored it, I was quite proud of them! I admit it gets a little annoying when you have that one fan that's never pleased with anything and pesters you about incorrect anatomy when you're trying to go for a cartoon style on something, but that's better than someone who's too afraid to tell you they're unhappy with what you're doing and just gives up on your comic without so much as offering a reason why. A good friend of mine stopped reading my comic when it got a little dramatic for a short stint, which was fair, I just told him to hang on for a bit because it wouldn't last long and it wasn't supposed to be taken as serious as he was taking it :) But because he emailed me about it and told me his feelings, I kept it in mind for future updates. Sure, you don't want fans to write your comic for you, but reader feedback is a VERY important part of improvement. Without it I'd still be making scribble-chibis colored badly with photoshop!
The idea that everyone should mindlessly praise anyone does annoy me a fair bit, I think it's because of people that take it too far to the other extreme and will mercilessly rip into something just to be a jerk, and some people feel like they have to counteract this by being sycophants :\ People have to be a little evenhanded with these things, some artists do have delicate egos, and harping on someone won't help them improve. But being too soft helps no one!
Since I don't know what comments you left I can't really judge whether they were justified or not, but I'm certain they were and it's not right for the audience to gang up on another reader for not going with the crowd! You should remind them that the rating system does go from 1-5 for a reason, the comments are supposed to be feedback, not sucking up! I wouldn't be at the point I am today if someone had not long ago told me my character's hair was starting to look like plastic helmets :D it was little harsh at the time but entirely true, and I fixed that page that very day and ever since comments like that I've improved a LOT on things.
And it's true that people will say negative things when you post your material in the public's eye, and it's being a tad ignorant to think everyone will love your stuff to itty-bitty pieces, I just feel it's not right to talk about it behind someone's back instead of offering some advice. That's why I suggested PQ's instead of comments, since I do know that some rabid-fans will rip anyone apart that dares say bad things about their favoritest comic evar!
Also, since it involves a friend I did get a little defensive, sorry if I was a little harsh, please don't read that first post of mine in the "rar angry voice!" way, I am actually more laid-back than I sometimes sound. I also have a hard time separating the comic from the author at times, i think that's because I'm so entangled emotionally in my own works that it's hard to think of anyone else not being that way! O_o
Plus, I'd rather have people tell me negative things to my face. Walking in on a conversation where people are saying mean things about you because they didn't know you were there can scar you emotionally for life, so it really gets to me sometimes when I see it involving other people. I even got defensive of a comic I really didn't like at all last time someone started a thread similar to this! Of course, I also have an unrealistic expectation of people being nice to other people...which has instead lead to me being a tad bit of a misanthrope!
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
Amelius
at 1:16PM, May 1, 2009
Hyena H_ll : Well said! But as I've noticed in the past, threads about DD comics usually get locked pretty fast because people that aren't fans tend to get mean about it. Not all the time, but I can recall a few instance where it happened.
I also agree about not telling people what to do too (I hope I didn't give the impression I was condoning that!) but people really can't bite their tongue when a comic they like is starting to lose steam. There are ways to suggest these things that don't involve complaining about it though...
While I do take advice on my art all the time, I never take writing suggestions because I have so much planned out, taking a piece out to insert fan-pleasing stuff will knock my plot's Jenga Tower over! And even over the art, I get people that want me to do something about proper anatomy when I got a character's mouth unnaturally wide...I just remind them that it's supposed to be cartoony and realism would be kinda boring!
For one, if I like a comic enough to read it, then I have respect for the creator's vision, even if certain parts don't appeal to me. And I would never expect a creator to compromise what they want to do with their comic just to please fans; that's when I start losing respect for a comic.
I think I tried to say that somewhere but went off on a tangent...ooops!
I think there's an unwritten DD rule that you don't criticize DD comics openly; I think this is both positive and negative. It does help keep the community more friendly, and deters people from constantly flaming popular comics just for being popular (OMG do I hate that!), or needlessly making fun of "bad" comics that someone who might not be the best artist is putting their heart and soul into.
Yeah, it does kinda seem that way. You can really tell when someone's trying their best, and I hate to see people being super-harsh on them like it's going to help! It's best to be motivationally helpful rather than "ur doin' it wrong!" on every page they post! You also gotta pay attention to what the authors want, if they ask for advice give it, but some people are interested in having fun, not improving. After all not everyone who has a webcomic wants to make a career of it!
I also agree about not telling people what to do too (I hope I didn't give the impression I was condoning that!) but people really can't bite their tongue when a comic they like is starting to lose steam. There are ways to suggest these things that don't involve complaining about it though...
While I do take advice on my art all the time, I never take writing suggestions because I have so much planned out, taking a piece out to insert fan-pleasing stuff will knock my plot's Jenga Tower over! And even over the art, I get people that want me to do something about proper anatomy when I got a character's mouth unnaturally wide...I just remind them that it's supposed to be cartoony and realism would be kinda boring!
For one, if I like a comic enough to read it, then I have respect for the creator's vision, even if certain parts don't appeal to me. And I would never expect a creator to compromise what they want to do with their comic just to please fans; that's when I start losing respect for a comic.
I think I tried to say that somewhere but went off on a tangent...ooops!
I think there's an unwritten DD rule that you don't criticize DD comics openly; I think this is both positive and negative. It does help keep the community more friendly, and deters people from constantly flaming popular comics just for being popular (OMG do I hate that!), or needlessly making fun of "bad" comics that someone who might not be the best artist is putting their heart and soul into.
Yeah, it does kinda seem that way. You can really tell when someone's trying their best, and I hate to see people being super-harsh on them like it's going to help! It's best to be motivationally helpful rather than "ur doin' it wrong!" on every page they post! You also gotta pay attention to what the authors want, if they ask for advice give it, but some people are interested in having fun, not improving. After all not everyone who has a webcomic wants to make a career of it!
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
harkovast
at 1:28PM, May 1, 2009
I need to make a thread where everyone posts how much they hate my comic!
There are hits to be gained from this negative publicity thing!
I think being critical of a comic on the forum is reasonable, as long as its kept civil and specific, rather then just "I hate it, its crap! It's awful! etc"
It works both ways though Amelius!
Timethief put THEIR opinions into the public domain, so you have just as much right to be critical of what they say, as much as they have the the right to complain about a comic.
I dont know how it could be kept civil and not just a flame war, but I sometimes wish we could have more frank honesty around here.
But its better to be too nice then too nasty (and most web comic communities are REALLY nasty!)
I suppose I could always go and criticise Power Up Comics (that is like the one exception that no one seems to get mad when you insult it!)
There are hits to be gained from this negative publicity thing!
I think being critical of a comic on the forum is reasonable, as long as its kept civil and specific, rather then just "I hate it, its crap! It's awful! etc"
It works both ways though Amelius!
Timethief put THEIR opinions into the public domain, so you have just as much right to be critical of what they say, as much as they have the the right to complain about a comic.
I dont know how it could be kept civil and not just a flame war, but I sometimes wish we could have more frank honesty around here.
But its better to be too nice then too nasty (and most web comic communities are REALLY nasty!)
I suppose I could always go and criticise Power Up Comics (that is like the one exception that no one seems to get mad when you insult it!)
For more Harkovast related goings on, go to the Harkovast Forum
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:43PM
Amelius
at 1:40PM, May 1, 2009
Amelius, don't take what timethief said out of context! It's actually a backhanded compliment-- when the ratings go back down it's because of the end of the alleged plugging(I don't read this comic) and the return to the normal storyline.
Now now, as a receiver of many back-handed compliments,I knows one when I sees one!
It's not a compliment at all, he clearly said he's happy that the comic is failing because of the storyline VND's doing. The ratings plummeted before he could even finish it in fact! It's a "take that!" for deviating from what he expected in the comic. I certainly don't enjoy when a comic I like, or even don't like, fails for trying something new and different. There's nothing wrong with not liking where a comic is going, it's all a matter of opinion, I have no problem with that, I only have issue with the schadenfreude over someone failing because they went in a direction you don't like. Had that part been left out I could almost agree with what was said!
Now now, as a receiver of many back-handed compliments,I knows one when I sees one!
It's not a compliment at all, he clearly said he's happy that the comic is failing because of the storyline VND's doing. The ratings plummeted before he could even finish it in fact! It's a "take that!" for deviating from what he expected in the comic. I certainly don't enjoy when a comic I like, or even don't like, fails for trying something new and different. There's nothing wrong with not liking where a comic is going, it's all a matter of opinion, I have no problem with that, I only have issue with the schadenfreude over someone failing because they went in a direction you don't like. Had that part been left out I could almost agree with what was said!
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
timethief
at 1:52PM, May 1, 2009
Amelius
You know what helps? Instead of posting things behind the author's back, why not try and voice your opinion where it can be heard, like say, their comment section? That's what instant feedback is about after all.
You are absolutely right, Amelius, and I had a comment on the subject ready, but then I just wimped out. I was afraid the readers, or even Roy himself (in his villain role) would just tear me to pieces. Also, I didn't feel "qualified" to speak about someone else's creative process to their face, not having a comic of my own. So I decided to see if I could find some kindred spirits in the open arena of opinion that is the forums, or if I was the only one bothered by that, because so far all I had read was praise. I was expecting, based on past experience, that only a couple of people would comment, since my older topics have not gotten much of a response.
Never in my wildest dreams I thought I would cause a commotion, and certainly it wasn't my intent to offend anyone. But I needed to address the issue, and it was very difficult to do that without it looking like a direct attack. I kinda realize now that it came out looking like a sneak attack, and I'm sorry.
However, I do believe this topic started a very healthy discussion. Just how far you can go with filler stuff without turning people off? Where is the line beyond which you just lose your direction? When do you start considering doing an "extras" comic? I do believe they are valid issues, and I just happened to use some actual examples.
I saw that Charby was killed today, ending the whole event. It did feel a little abrupt, but at this point I'm not surprised about it, I just thought Roy had gotten in a hurry to make room for something else that caught his fancy. I think he devised a very effective marketing gimmick that surely got him a lot of readers, I just feel it got out of hand.
Also, it seems that because of this topic, a couple of guys just added me to their friends list, so I guess the shock strategy also worked for me. Oh the irony.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
Amelius
at 1:56PM, May 1, 2009
Harkovast
It works both ways though Amelius!
Timethief put THEIR opinions into the public domain, so you have just as much right to be critical of what they say, as much as they have the the right to complain about a comic.
I dont know how it could be kept civil and not just a flame war, but I sometimes wish we could have more frank honesty around here.
But its better to be too nice then too nasty (and most web comic communities are REALLY nasty!)
I suppose I could always go and criticise Power Up Comics (that is like the one exception that no one seems to get mad when you insult it!)
Hehe, I gotta learn to be more succinct! :D I never said he wasn't allowed to complain, I'm just voicing my opinion that it's not nice be so happy about their failures is all! I am aware it goes both ways, I did not mean to sound like a hypocrite and if I did, all apologies then! I can agree with the post, just not the part about being happy about it. Also I can't agree enough that it's better to be too nice than too nasty. Like I said, they gotta be evenhanded! I'm just of the opinion that people shouldn't be afraid to tell something to someones face, I for one dislike finding out someone is telling other people what is wrong with my comic when they could have told me and I could have done something about it!
(actually, when PUC is brought up they usually lock the thread! The reason people freely insult it is because it's not a real comic, it's produced by trolls on the TABB forums and posted here to try and create drama. That, and it's purposefully bad!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
©2011-2012 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved









