reidavidson
*stalkstalk* I think we're here to encourage one another, not grade one another.

omg you're still stalking me from the other thread!!! I'm kinda touched ^_^ yay!

reidavidson
*stalkstalk* I think we're here to encourage one another, not grade one another.

encouraging by grading added with constructive critism and guidance will do too..

Actually Kristen, I have completely changed my opinion and agree with you. I'm not going to use the rating system any more. i'll just leave a comment but no score.

You're right, nothing good comes from having a rating system...


but see what i mean about giving anything less than a 5, see how it stuck in your memory about me giving you a 4! I know you have a voodoo doll of me with pins in it's eyes! LOL!


Yea, so no more scores from me!

I haven't had anyone freak out at me for leaving polite constructive crits. Using the format "here's what's good, here's what could be improved" works much better than "this page sucks and here's why". =P Also, using words like "terrible", "awful", "sucks" should probably be avoided, keeping in mind that we are on a community site and not in an art school where people are paying for and expecting harsh critiques. If a page is so horrible I can't think of a single nice thing to say about it, I usually just don't comment unless the author has specifically asked for tips.

If you're really good, you can critique the person without them realising they've been critiqued! Ohoho! lol!

I do think some people are genuinely looking for tips and help but some really aren't!

Some people just want you to say how great they are!

It's working out who is who! ;)

JillyFoo
It's really sad ,but it is true. I set up my 230+ page comic The Planet Closest to Heaven up for reviews last year. All the reviews was nice art nice art oh the art improved, but NO NEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ IT. Long comics with bad art/writing from the beginning have trouble getting new readers.

I hear this one. One of the many roadblocks/reasons I had to overhaul Shifters. The beginning just sucked too much to ever appeal to a broad audience, it turned a lot of people off right away. And the original Shifters had a 400+ page archive. It also missed out on a lot of establishment stuff so people got confused later on and made it too hard to write. Its like trying to build a house on a crappy foundation. Eventually it just all falls down.

ShadowsMyst

JillyFoo
It's really sad ,but it is true. I set up my 230+ page comic The Planet Closest to Heaven up for reviews last year. All the reviews was nice art nice art oh the art improved, but NO NEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ IT. Long comics with bad art/writing from the beginning have trouble getting new readers.

I hear this one. One of the many roadblocks/reasons I had to overhaul Shifters. The beginning just sucked too much to ever appeal to a broad audience, it turned a lot of people off right away. And the original Shifters had a 400+ page archive. It also missed out on a lot of establishment stuff so people got confused later on and made it too hard to write. Its like trying to build a house on a crappy foundation. Eventually it just all falls down.

Actually, if you provide intriguing newer pages and they got stuck in people's mind, many will try to understand the earliear pages just to see how far the developments have been.

And being active in forums help to get new readers have their brains filled with your works.

That, and sending PQs to moderator about your work milestones help too!

Tommie Kelly
Actually Kristen, I have completely changed my opinion and agree with you. I'm not going to use the rating system any more. i'll just leave a comment but no score.

You're right, nothing good comes from having a rating system...


but see what i mean about giving anything less than a 5, see how it stuck in your memory about me giving you a 4! I know you have a voodoo doll of me with pins in it's eyes! LOL!


Yea, so no more scores from me!

haha it's just that was my first 4... XD
*burns effigy of TK* jk jk <3!

JillyFoo
It's really sad ,but it is true. I set up my 230+ page comic The Planet Closest to Heaven up for reviews last year. All the reviews was nice art nice art oh the art improved, but NO NEW PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ IT. Long comics with bad art/writing from the beginning have trouble getting new readers.

yeah I totally know what you mean. I'm pretty sure if I started over, Misfit Assassins would probably garner a lot more readers than it has... my beginning pages weren't *terrible* but they aren't very gripping... and there aren't any grammar/spelling problems, but the characterizations are kinda flat (although I used more humor back then).
well some people read my archives... (they're saints!!!) and whenever I get a new reader they always say "wow the art was terrible at first but you've improved!!" haha...

I'm not sure why Kristen, but I want to stalk you. *stalkstalk*

I improve better with encouragement than with critiques. I can understand explaining how to do something, which helps too.

But for example, if someone says "This character's anatomy is wrong." that just frustrates me. Because... how do I fix it?? Sure, they're right, I'll probably pay attention to what their talking about, but not knowing how to fix it makes me upset.

Now, if someone says "The anatomy is wrong on the arm. Maybe you should try rounding out the bottom part more..?" then I'm like "o rly?" and I'll try that, and when it works I'm happy and accomplished.

Most people point out bad things with no suggestions on fixing them. That's why critiques are hard to swallow sometimes.

But mostly I perfer "I really like this comic!" because that makes me think "Ooo, I should try really hard to update it again for them!"

Things that completely turn me off a comic are:

*'I don't give a damn' styles like stickmen type drawings, sloppy lines and unvaried head shots. You just know that they can't have thought it through enough to make me want to care about it.

*Characters that look practically identical. Sometimes I've been reading and only find out pages later when the person I thought it was reappears that I've been mistaken. Sorry I didn't notice that single strand of hair you tilted in the opposite direction...

*Pages suffocated by text. I think in most cases the panel shouldn't be taken up by any more than half dialogue. Unless you've got some serious fans then I think most people end up skimming.

Oh and fillers are fine if they're infrequent or appropriately placed. The main reason I don't do festival art any more is because it disrupts the flow and isn't relevent to people reading at a later date.

*glomps Evil_Snuffkin and cuddles like a stuffed animal* I don't mind fillers. It let's me know the artist hasn't totally forgotten the comic in question if they haven't updated in awhile.

I remember reading a comic either here on DD or smackjeeves and half way tru the first chapter, it jumped into the next chapter cos the creator was bored!

Sorry if this is any of you guys, but c'mon if you're bored how do you think your readers are? I don't think leaving out huge chunks of the story is going to help!

Tommie Kelly
I remember reading a comic either here on DD or smackjeeves and half way tru the first chapter, it jumped into the next chapter cos the creator was bored!

Sorry if this is any of you guys, but c'mon if you're bored how do you think your readers are? I don't think leaving out huge chunks of the story is going to help!

Hahaha, okay, that's just bad. I mean.. I understand being excited to get to a part in your story, but to skip a whole chapter just to get there? lol!

"I'm sure you guys will figure out what happened in between!"

Could be worse i guess, you could keep telling the same story over and over only slightly differently each time!

Oh no wait, that's what Marvel does....

:P

Evil_Snuffkin
*Characters that look practically identical. Sometimes I've been reading and only find out pages later when the person I thought it was reappears that I've been mistaken. Sorry I didn't notice that single strand of hair you tilted in the opposite direction...

God yeah... I've stopped or not even attempted reading printed format comics if the characters look too alike... if the professionals who do it annoy me online artists really have no chance. ^^;

I remember reading a comic either here on DD or smackjeeves and half way tru the first chapter, it jumped into the next chapter cos the creator was bored!
I've seen something similar somewhere myself. Apart from being sorta lazy and too egar to get to the "good bits", it also came across as kinda patronizing - like the author didn't expect readers to understand or enjoy the slower parts of the comic. :/ I honestly just felt short-changed... If the author can't be arsed drawing it I can't be arsed reading it quite frankly.

wyldflowa
If the author can't be arsed drawing it I can't be arsed reading it quite frankly.

Agreed!

Wow. I've read through every single post and I'm ashamed to say I made a number of the mistakes mentioned here.

I think it first started with an unannounced Haitus. I didn't post again until months later. ANd when I did, it was the crappy looking pencil drawing. Originally I meant to clean them up and make them look really nice with photo-shop. But in the end it took WAY to much time and I gave up after only 9 strips.

Luckily I didn't make the mistake of using filler art. That's one of my Pet Peeves about Web comics like Grog.

But eventually I started posting again when I figured out a way to produce decent quality strips without taking up TOO much time. But I still had the problem of inconsistency in the quality from the beginning, middle to present. So had to go back and do up the older strips to make them look like how I did the new ones so the comic has an overall flow of consistency with it's art.

I'm only now beginning to get back a few of the readers I originally had to begin with(wasn't that many to start with.) and I'm finally beginning to make real progress with consitent updates, decent quality art and gain a steady reading base.

Drawing my comic is actually fun again.

Uh, anyways I'm going to shut up about myself now.

Hguyver
Luckily I didn't make the mistake of using filler art. That's one of my Pet Peeves about Web comics like Grog.

Hey, I read this, you know. :(

I know I use a lot of filler. It's my choice. I still feel pretty new to art, and so when I create something I'm proud of, or someone sends me something, it's a big deal to me, and I like to show it off. If it turns someone off from reading my comic, so be it. Not gonna bother me. But I don't really like being used as an example of a "fatal error", y'know?

At some point I'd like to take all the filler out and put it somewhere separate, but first I'll have to find some way to bear losing all those precious comments I got on them. ^_^

Eviltwinpixie
"Hguyver" Said:

Luckily I didn't make the mistake of using filler art. That's one of my Pet Peeves about Web comics like Grog.



Hey, I read this, you know.

Oh, wow That really came out the wrong way. Sorry(I REALLY shouldn't be making forum post so late at night...)

I need mean to say anything harsh it, it's just that your stip is really one of my favorites and like with a number of strips I read everytime I check to see that there is an update, for the actual story it's more art. It good art, it just gets kinda frustrating after while because I really like the characters and story and I'd like to see what happens next.

REALLY sorry about that.

*pats Eviltwinpixie* I don't think they meant to make it so personal.. And they read your comic so that's a sign it doesn;t bug em too much yes?

*gives Eviltwinpixie candies and a cupcake and a kitten so no one has to have their feelings hurt*

No problem. ^_^ It just surprised me to be used as an example of a "fatal error in webcomics" right where I could read it. ;)

I certainly do appreciate the point, I just have my reasons not to change it right now. ^_^

lol it's probably my fault for giving the thread such a decadently insulting name...

Not making each individual strip fun and rewarding to read in some way. In some of the best webcomics I know the creator seems to find a new way of drawing things each time they pick up the pen.

danthemancartoons
Not making each individual strip fun and rewarding to read in some way. In some of the best webcomics I know the creator seems to find a new way of drawing things each time they pick up the pen.

that's something I wish I was better at :<
One of my biggest problems with webcomics is how, unless a comic has really awesome art or each page is funny or has a riveting bit of story, posting one or a few pages at a time can get boring. It's cool to have a cliffhanger because that makes people want to come back and read more but boring pages that have almost nothing to do with the story aren't. Sometimes it's hard, though, because you might need to make a transition or lead into another point of the story and it's not exactly intresting but necessary. I guess balancing this is one of the greatest trials of comic authordom.

Eviltwinpixie
No problem. ^_^ It just surprised me to be used as an example of a "fatal error in webcomics" right where I could read it. ;)

I certainly do appreciate the point, I just have my reasons not to change it right now. ^_^

Well since I see Grog in the most read section it couldn't have been too fatal of an error. XD

I'm just good at promotion. ^_^

Ha! Just read through all of these, and it's kinda distressing to see how many of these very mistakes I made on comics now long dead and gone. I've even actually made two on the comic I'm doing now. (One, it's a 'remake' of a comic whos archive died on keenspace back when I was in college, and ontop of that, it's a 're-remake' of a comic that I was posting on drunkduck -- a whole dozen or so strips, wow! -- about a year ago, before I moved and all my creative projects went splat. And two, the boxes for my panels are all crappily hand drawn. :P)

For my part, it takes a heck of a lot to kill a comic for me. Because my internet access was shaky for so long (right out of college, I lost it/got it/lost it/got it) I tended to binge read, so if you get me to fav or bookmark something, it doesn't matter how often you update -- It used to be that I wouldn't be checking for a month or two, anyway. With the * marks on drunkduk, I do check regularly, but I'm still just as content to wait on content as I was before. I also tend to like simpler art (it's easier for me to learn something off of, as I'm less likely to go 'oh, wow, that's entirely beyond my abilities in all ways shapes and forms' and then get depressed) and I don't mind lots of digital text. (I'm a big e-book fan. Huzzah for the baen online library and project guttenberg!)

However, I do dislike comic page layouts that I have difficulty navigating (more a problem on comic-book style pages than strips). If I have trouble following the flow of action or dialouge on a page, I tend to get frustrated. Also, if I can't easily distinguish characters at a glance, I'm doomed. I prefer it when the main characters have distinctive hairstyles/colors. That way I can tell who's who even when they've changed outfits. ;D

But oddly enough, it is *I* who am doomed, and not the comic, even if I eventually realize the layout or art annoys me in some way. Once it's faved/bookmarked, I'll still check it -- but the more it drives me nuts, the longer it will be between checks. (That's just subconcious self-defence, nothing personal.)

Which (to conclude my book, here) means that the only way to 'kill' a comic, in my opinion, is to not hook the reader (i.e. me) in the begining. I'll usually fav/bookmark something in about 5 pages, or at the end of the first storyarc, but if I wander off because I haven't been hooked and that fav/bookmark hasn't been set, I probably won't read it again unless I stumble across a link to it somewhere else, months-to-years later, and it looks familiar enough for me to check it out again just to see where I remember it from.

Oh I know some!
Having the author spoil key points of their comic's plot during their page rants or on forum posts.

Using actual webcomic names as examples for this-something-is-bad on page rants or forum posts(unless it's uber popular like Megatokyo or PA or an official comic review/critique).

I'm totally guilty of the "too much dialogue, not enough action" thing. I do tend to write a lot of conversations - I like conversations - but I need to do a better job of depicting them.

My biggest "fatal error" complaint about webcomics is Bad Fonts. So many people use fonts that are hard to read or that are unpleasant to read. I hate it when a comic uses Arial or Helvetica for dialogue - and its' worse when it's some really ornate font with a brightly colored dropshadow and you can't even guess what the characters are saying...

StaceyMontgomery
My biggest "fatal error" complaint about webcomics is Bad Fonts. So many people use fonts that are hard to read or that are unpleasant to read. I hate it when a comic uses Arial or Helvetica for dialogue - and its' worse when it's some really ornate font with a brightly colored dropshadow and you can't even guess what the characters are saying...

Hahaha even if comic sans is overused at least people can read it.