Somehow, this forum discussion comes to mind as I think of Darth Mongoose of FanDanGo fame!

Thinking about the stereotypes in say, manga and anime (i.e. the big boobs, scant clothing, revealing poses). Would you say that art has come a bit further along in the world of comics? If not, do you find yourself seeking to be an instrument of change? Or do you roll with the punches or even add your two cents to the some of the worse-case stereotypes.

Up for discussion and your opinions since it seems this community and the comic world is still male-dominated.

This is a man's world, this is a man's world...
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

Oh James Brown...
The lyrics go against anything I'd say, but they seem appropriate. :)

Stacy Montgomery of Rocketship A GoGo seems to tackle this one head first... after a fashion. Even with her "Priate Mom" comic.
Being male myself though I draw what appeals to me and I'd hope that anyone of either sex would do the same.
I mean... is it really sexism though if you're just appealing to your demographic? For me I suppose my demographic is people who either like what I like, or at least give my art the benefit of the doubt.

Although the comic industry is still male dominated, there have been several articles lately that the number of Fangirls is increasing quickly and we're not as outnumbered as one might think.

blntmaker
Somehow, this forum discussion comes to mind as I think of Darth Mongoose of FanDanGo fame!

Thinking about the stereotypes in say, manga and anime (i.e. the big boobs, scant clothing, revealing poses). Would you say that art has come a bit further along in the world of comics?

With all the "Hentai" out there...No. Even in regular comics...Alan Moore (who is like a God to comicgeeks everywhere) just did Lost Girls (porn.) If anything, the comic code is more lax and sex sells, buddy.

I don't see it as "sterotyping" so much as feminine exploitation. I can't complain though, I'd rather look at Lady Death than a flat chested waif.

blntmaker
If not, do you find yourself seeking to be an instrument of change?

Hell no. Who am I to try and "change" anyone's artistic expression. People bitch for the sake of bitchin'. If one is offended, they shouldn't read what offends their "fragile little minds."

And just to prove how girly I truly am, I'll close with a movie quote:
"I am not under any orders to make the world a better place."

(Because who is to say what is better?)

P.S. I am a HUGE James Brown fan. Huge!

ozoneocean
This is a man's world, this is a man's world...
But it wouldn't be nothing, nothing without a woman or a girl

Oh James Brown...
The lyrics go against anything I'd say, but they seem appropriate. :)

Now I got that song playing on my iTunes! Man, look what you done started!

This just seemed like an interesting topic - I figured it would be a great way to bring out the Stacy Montgomeries et al. other female artists/writers here in the Duck for a frank discussion on it...if this hasn't been covered yet.

Still waiting for you DARTH MONGOOSE!

Oh I was just thinking about this!

HERE's a question...there are two ways women can think of themselves as liberating...One they refuse any sexual appearances and media influences (ex: 60's hippie woman's feminism.).
Second way is for women to embrace sexual appearances and ways (ex: The Da Vinci Codes talks a lot about this. Summery: it said that current religion believes that a women must be pure, nonslutish and covered up because they lead men into temptation. The book talked about how old religions embraced sex and the female form.)

Of the two ways what is more liberating?

maritalbliss
Although the comic industry is still male dominated, there have been several articles lately that the number of Fangirls is increasing quickly and we're not as outnumbered as one might think.

With all the "Hentai" out there...No. Even in regular comics...Alan Moore (who is like a God to comicgeeks everywhere) just did Lost Girls (porn.) If anything, the comic code is more lax and sex sells, buddy.

I don't see it as "sterotyping" so much as feminine exploitation. I can't complain though, I'd rather look at Lady Death than a flat chested waif.

Hell no. Who am I to try and "change" anyone's artistic expression. People bitch for the sake of bitchin'. If one is offended, they shouldn't read what offends their "fragile little minds."

And just to prove how girly I truly am, I'll close with a movie quote:
"I am not under any orders to make the world a better place."

Thanks! Great retort there...Especially the point about female exploitation. That might make more sense in the male dominated - fangirl growing field!

JillyFoo
Oh I was just thinking about this!

HERE's a question...there are two ways women can think of themselves as liberating...One they refuse any sexual appearances and media influences (ex: 60's hippie woman's feminism.).
Second way is for women to embrace sexual appearances and ways (ex: The Da Vinci Codes talks a lot about this. Summery: it said that current religion believes that a women must be pure, nonslutish and covered up because they lead men into temptation. The book talked about how old religions embraced sex and the female form.)

Of the two ways what is more liberating?

This was mentioned by marital bliss as well. Refuse ownership in the roles and labels placed on women! Embrace the sexuality too, the symbolisms and accept the natural flow of life and say, "it is what it is"!

Thanks JillyFoo!

I agree. Women should just be themselves in all ways and refuse labels. If you want to be super sexy, just do so. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be a top CEO type woman or a homemaker. Just do it and refuse to be lumped into anyone's labels or stereotypes of that position or attitude.

I never really considered sexism or anything like that when I started drawing my comic, but I guess it can have a bit of a female liberating feeling. My main characters are all women. They don't draw attention to it. It isn't special. They are just women. They are loosely modeled after my roommates and act much like we do. No need for stereotypes. They are not objects and nor are they man-hating feminists, just people with emotions and thoughts. (Not asexual either. One loves tight clothing and chasing men. It's just part of her character.)

Many/most of my semi-main characters are men. I think they are as well-rounded and as human as the ladies, but I'm not a man, so I can't be sure if I have created realistic characters. I don't think they are stereotypes, but I can never know. That is a risk to any storytelling.

You can never be 100% empathetic to characters of different backgrounds, genders, or whatever than yourself. Maybe that is why female characters get stereotyped. The male writer/artist has to base them on women they know or imagine but have never been inside a woman's mind, just like I can base a male character on men I know, but I'll never know exactly how they feel or think. -- Of course, some of it is simply exploitation for the sake of sales. If people will buy comics containing shallow women with giant breasts, then artists will supply them.

I say go ahead and do whatever you like. To each his or her own.

I get occasional people commenting on the number of female characters in my comic. But there are plenty of comics out there with the same gender ratio, but the opposite way around, so that guys outnumber girls 2:1 or sometimes more. I just create characters however I want them to be, and I don't really mind if people can't get it, because some people really get it and think it's awesome.

Funny that you gave manga and anime as examples of sexism. I actually got into anime in my teens because I found it refreshingly less sexist than the western stuff was at the time. Yes, you get some female characters with huge boobs or clothing that conveniently falls off, but only in some stuff, and hentai exists, but it's easy to avoid. There are loads of awesome heroines in anime and manga. Rosette from Chrono Crusade, Lina Inverse from Slayers, Sakura from 'Cardcaptor Sakura' Shipon from Uchuu no Stellvia, Rukia from Bleach... who are not treated as objects and manage to be cute, cool and kickass at the same time.
The thing that drew me to anime heroines was that when I was a kid, heroines in western stuff I saw were either totally wet or they were just like the male characters with obligatory boobs. Then you look at the comics from my childhood...Rob Liefield influenced artwork meant women had breasts like missile cones, tiny waists and killer thighs. There was no sense of 'I'm a girl, I like to wear pretty things sometimes, but I can also fight and be practical'. They always had to be one way or the other, and I couldn't relate to that.
Then one day in high school, I saw 'Cardcaptors', which I would later know as 'Cardcaptor Sakura' in which a ten year old girl with magical powers and really cool pretty dresses, made by her lesbian best friend, fights these giant monsters using her magic, her athletic skills and her wits. I was just left gawping at the TV thinking 'Oh. This is amazing! It's like they tapped into my brain and made a show!' and after that, I was hooked on Japanese pop culture.

What I would really say I believe in in the end, is equality. I don't think men and women are the same, there are obvious physical and mental differences, but I think the two genders are of equal value. The people who enforce political correctness often make this stupid mistake of thinking everybody should be treated the same. That's not right. People aren't the same, and they have vastly different needs. My feelings are that people should be treated with equal respect.
That's why I try to make sure not to go the route of putting pretty eye-candy boys in my comic, or making all the male characters gruff Neanderthals or sexual predators. I write more female characters because it's meant to be a shoujo action comic. I wrote it for a female audience, so like the work of Jane Austen, it's largely from the female viewpoint.
I'm sick of stupid films like 'Underworld', 'Resident Evil' and 'Ultraviolet' (and though I hate to say it because I quite like the film...'Kill Bill') which think they're being feminist by making the main character a ridiculous Mary Sue (don't know what a Mary Sue is, go look it up on Wikipedia) who's super dooper at everything and everybody loves her, so they can go 'look at this amazing heroine! She can do anything and kick anybody's butt and everybody thinks she's pretty! Aren't we cool and feminist!' But they're not being feminist! They're encouraging both the 'women should be placed on a pedastal and gawped at' camp, and the irritating 'women are better than men!' camp. If you're gonna give me an action heroine, make them flawed and give her a personality and have her think like a woman, not a super-being. Give me Ripley from Aliens or Sarah Connor from Terminator any day!

tl;dr. And that's all I have to say, about feminism. I need a cup of tea...

Man I love it when Darth Mongoose makes a post. 'Cause you knows it giong to be interesting and make a good point.

And I REALLY agree with the second half. Especially the part about the Mary Sue thing. I like to think that I've tried to make my female characters more rounded. they've got odd personalities to be sure, but I try not to make them over used cliches. They're not week and helpless, but they aren't godlike either. They've got their strenghts and weaknesses both physically, and emotionally.

I had a friend who said she loved the female characters I created which I took as encouragement that I might be doing something right... I hope. I won't say that I don't try to make the female lead of my comic attractive. I do. But I don't draw her that way simply so she's 'eye candy.' I put a lot of work into the characters history and personality.

It just so happened that the main character of Nadya turned out to be female. In the end, I like it that way- I pretty much wanted to have a character who was as kick-ass and respectable as any male adventuring character I've ever read in a comic.

Almost all of the women in penis are interchangable random girls. The only personality types they have are as cutters, prostitutes, or the ever recurring dumb girls.

I got asked something like this the other day. Contrary to popular belief, MOSAIC is actually on its 3rd volume (in pencils at least) and just last week one of my prereaders asked why all the teams had a 2:1 ratio of boys to girls. After insulting some of the earlier characters that were in the first volume and never left, I told her it was mostly because, being the middle child with and older and younger brother, I felt more influenced towards that. So, even though the boys outnumber the girls, the girls aare much more mature. ^_^

blntmaker
Thinking about the stereotypes in say, manga and anime (i.e. the big boobs, scant clothing, revealing poses). Would you say that art has come a bit further along in the world of comics?

The web comic world, because the barrier to entry is so low, has an amazing variety of storytelling. It doesn't have to pass some bean counter's idea of commercially viable product. Anyone who has a computer can be a storyteller. Besides the near infinite set of sprite comics, there are storytelling of all types. Drunk Duck has topics for Fantasy, Real Life, Sprite, Sci-Fi, Horror, Adventure, Crime/Noir, Humor, Manga, Political, Spritual, Romance, Superhero. I don't think the old stereotypes are going away, I think new voices are being added, the diversity is getting better.
Are there still silly throwback? My straight friend is all agog over power girl for blatant reasons.

blntmaker
Up for discussion and your opinions since it seems this community and the comic world is still male-dominated.

I think the webcomic community is weighted toward guys cause a larger number of guys play on computers and make comics. Guys like visuals.
I think the print community is oriented toward guys cause tease sells comics to more guys.

blntmaker
If not, do you find yourself seeking to be an instrument of change?

Actually, no. I'm trying create fun stories with nice art and tell stories with a non mainstream point of view. If that changes things, so be it. But it's not my purpose.

Isn't Darth Mongoose a guy? I could've sworn he said he's a guy.

Don't think about all the -isms when you make your story. If you try too hard to make a political statement, your story will suck. If you try too hard to pander to what's "in" atm, your story will suck.

Just stick with the timeless aspects of storytelling, and tell the story you want to tell. Luck and advertising will determine if you hit a nerve center in the general readership.

Each character is a different person. While one character in the story may be an intelligent self-sufficient woman, the next one may be an airhead bimbo.

mlai
Isn't Darth Mongoose a guy? I could've sworn he said he's a guy.

Um YEAH, I'm a GUY.... called KATE.
...It's short for 'Bob'.

Look at how manly I am.
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21513026/

Darth Mongoose

mlai
Isn't Darth Mongoose a guy? I could've sworn he said he's a guy.

Um YEAH, I'm a GUY

See, told ya.
You're an Asian guy, right?

mlai

Darth Mongoose

mlai
Isn't Darth Mongoose a guy? I could've sworn he said he's a guy.

Um YEAH, I'm a GUY

See, told ya.
You're an Asian guy, right?

OMG! How did you know that!? I used to be a member of Orange Range, but they thought I was too masculine to be an idol and dumped me. *tear*

I feel your pain, man. It's sexism I tell ya.

Darth Mongoose

mlai
Isn't Darth Mongoose a guy? I could've sworn he said he's a guy.

Um YEAH, I'm a GUY.... called KATE.
...It's short for 'Bob'.

Look at how manly I am.
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21513026/

Hey, that's a pretty decent Cosplay. You make for a good Selphie.

And I think mlai makes a good point(not about Mongoose being a guy) But about the whole just tell the story you want. If you worrying too much about people thinking your character is too much of a cliche bimbo airhead or Mary Sue takes all the fun out of making the story.

Yeah. Sometimes, real women are clueless bimbos. Unless every single female character in a story is portrayed in some terrible light and all of the men are shining heroes (or the other way around), I really don't have a problem with it. Like someone said above, women who are portrayed as perfect usually annoy me more than the ones who are portrayed with flaws. Mary Joe Do-Good with a perfect body and a shining personality and the mental and physical fortitude of a goddess is not a very interesting character. At least the bimbo can give some comic relief if placed properly. =p

Do I find myself seeking to be an instrument of change? Not really. My main character is female, flat chested, and kind of a grouch, but I didn't sit down and think to myself "hey, I'd better make sure that this character doesn't fall under any stereotypes before I make her!". It fits her personality and the type of personality that I needed to fill the role. If the role had called for her to have giant breasts and the personality of a fly, then she would have had giant breasts and the personality of a fly.

Thus far, the majority of the characters in Due East are female, which wasn't exactly on purpose. The two main characters are sisters and that was on purpose but the rest of the characters are being introduced as needed.

As many of you know, I've been writing this comic with my wife. So, that's introduced a direct female perspective into the story instead of just a male trying to represent a female point of view. I think that's helped the comic a whole lot!

Nobody's designed to be a sex object in Due East but noone's designed to be downright ugly, either. Many people have noticed that DE's characters are made to look like real people do. They change hairstyles and looks, lose or grow hair, gain or lose weight, etc. And as radical as that is these days, based on how little it's seen in most comics (no offense to any print or webcomics in particular), it's been a real pleasure to do in DE!

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope they made sense! :)

Darth Mongoose
OMG! How did you know that!? I used to be a member of Orange Range, but they thought I was too masculine to be an idol and dumped me. *tear*

i thought you were a member of YATTA !

dueeast
Thus far, the majority of the characters in Due East are female, which wasn't exactly on purpose. The two main characters are sisters and that was on purpose but the rest of the characters are being introduced as needed.



Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope they made sense! :)

Thanks for the .02 - of course.

And more people, even Darth Mongoose have chimed in about the STRENGTH within the female characters. It goes beyond what they wear or how endowed the character is in a comic. It's about the measure of each character!

Great feedback here.

Well, quite an interesting set of comments we have here. Personally, I have my own fair share of opinions on this matter. Personally, I'm not a fan of the huge knockers that some comics draw (Boobs that size literally make me retch; no joke). Heck, the main character will have the largest breasts amongst the main series, and another main character, who is seventeen, will be as flat as a fourth grader (And unfortunately will be the butt of a few jokes...). Even Sanny, the "strongest" member of the group, suffered a severe identity crisis when she was younger.

Then again, large breasts in comics will be around as long as there are men who like them, just as there will be effeminate, long-haired "cute evil guys" as a woman I met a while ago described as one of her credentials for an enjoyable anime, as long as there are women who find them attractive.

Heck, I'd almost go as far to say that men are often subject to stereotypes in comics and anime as much as women are. There are lots of animes that have the bumbling idiot guy, the narcissist or the really hot guy with a high-pitched voice. In manga in particular, men are often portrayed as perverts and dimwits and are also seldom spared from stereotypes, especially when they're minor characters. Your typical superhero is a mesomorph and super-muscular.

As for fangirls and fanboys, I honestly feel that I was outnumbered at A-kon this year as there were tons of girls and, unless some guys were really good at cross-play, seemed like there were about as many as the guys. Then again, I did tend to go to places that had a lot of girls, like the Manga library (Of which I grew fearful for my safety when I was the only guy out of five and the others started talking about Yaoi). I don't really consider the domain of Manga and Anime to cater towards a specific gender, as there are lots of sub-domains and all have an appeal to someone, something I feel most American comics have lost to the Superhero genre, which is obviously a boy's world.

Darth Mongoose
Um YEAH, I'm a GUY.... called KATE.
...It's short for 'Bob'.

Are you Bill Murray? I love your movie:

SteveMyers22

Darth Mongoose
Um YEAH, I'm a GUY.... called KATE.
...It's short for 'Bob'.

Are you Bill Murray? I love your movie:

I should have known making a 'Blackadder' reference in a forum full of non-brits would lead to nobody picking up on the joke...ah well.

...I remember that one... Wasn't that from "Black Adder goes fourth"? Miranda Richardson (who played Queen Elizabeth I in the second series), was disguised as a man...? A trooper... She falls in love with Captain Black Adder, but later goes off with Rick Mayal's character... It's been a very long time since I saw that (maybe 15 years?), so I'm not sure...

Interesting comments about boob sizes lol!
What do they matter though normally? Just draw your characters to look like how you want. Big bosoms don't equal sexism anyway, sexism is discrimination based on sex. So if you draw a character with a large chest measurement because that's what you like to draw then you're not discriminating against anyone.
I suppose "sexism" manifests when you only have either sex stuck only in certain limited roles, or depicted only as behaving in certain ways... Like if your women were always "sluts", or motherly figures, or just love interests, and your men have trouble with their feelings or they're all hard brutal action men. Ah whatever, the point's been made before, but the thing is that the depiction isn't really a main concern in terms of "sexism", -unless there's no variety I suppose.

I dont really have anything to add that the others haven't already said. I will say that the title of this thread is in and of itself, sexist. Which I find amusing.






Also, I HATE feminism, I loath it, it disgusts me. I guess thats for another thread though.

ozoneocean
...I remember that one... Wasn't that from "Black Adder goes fourth"? Miranda Richardson (who played Queen Elizabeth I in the second series), was disguised as a man...? A trooper... She falls in love with Captain Black Adder, but later goes off with Rick Mayal's character... It's been a very long time since I saw that (maybe 15 years?), so I'm not sure...

Well done! A character called 'Kate' decides to become Blackadder's servant, pretending to be a boy, and saying her name is short for 'Bob'. I think it's the last episode in that series. I always remembered the episode because the character had my name, and the first time I saw it, I must have been about eight and thought it was wonderful.

Hmm, variation of character probably is the key. That and steering away from stereotypes where possible. Just as important as remembering that many women are smart and capable or can beat people up is remembering that many women are incompetent, dumb, couldn't throw a tennis ball, never mind a punch etc. It's the same deal as race or disability issues, or anything else. It's fine to have a stupid bimbo in a comic, I've met plenty in real life, so long as you don't make all the female characters busty bimbos it's not sexist.