kyupol

...enlightened era for sexual freedom in America

Very true. Broken families, STDs, and the objectification of ALL humans (Men = walking wallets, Women = sex object, Child = burden) are such a wonderful things...

Well not one to hijack a thread, I decided to take this one outside as it were.

Just what does this mean exactly, are you claiming that we are not more enlightened, because we have "broken" families? I love that kind of talk, it reminds me of the pro-life folks. It's defining the debate by terminology, after all who is really anti life??

Are these families really broken? Isn't it better for incompatible spouses to seperate rather than to just "stay together for the children?" What message does a loveless marriage teach a child?

And I don't how you justify this objectification argument? Sure women are objectified, but you seem to imply this is only true in this era. I would argue women were more objectified when they were denied the vote, or legal status after their husbands died, or ostracised when they were raped, or sent to mental institutions for exhibiting feminist thoughts.

Those were the good old days in America, so please feel free to pine for the days of old, but I personally am glad I live in an enlightened age of sexual freedom and tolerance.

You can smugly point to several bad examples, but I am curious what you would deem the good old days and why.

I guess, like everything else, enlightenment is only relative.

Are these families really broken? Isn't it better for incompatible spouses to seperate rather than to just "stay together for the children?" What message does a loveless marriage teach a child?

Everybody likes the easy way out. Sticking it out and working things out together sends a message to the children that they must learn to stick it out in the future. Through thick and thin, through good times and bad times. Stick it out. Sticking it out requires patience, and perseverance, and a strong willpower. Which are virtues by themselves.

Even though I don't really agree with my parents, my parents stuck it out for me and my brothers and up to now they are still together. Even though hanging out with them or either one of them for extended periods has a 90% chance to create a conflict... I still admire them for the fact that they stuck it out together through thick and thin.

And whenever I see an old couple in the newspaper who have been together for more than 60 years, I could not help but admire and salute these people... for being part of a STRONG generation.

And at the same time I also feel sad because those people are gonna disappear from the earth in a matter of a few years (old age lol).

Oh well... guess you can say I was born behind of my time. :( And yes my kind will disappear.

And I don't how you justify this objectification argument? Sure women are objectified, but you seem to imply this is only true in this era.

Not only women are objectified. Men and children as well.

Every self-respecting and respectful male is nothing but a walking wallet. If not for my education I guess I'da become a walking ATM for a woman. lol

Children are seen as burdens. No wonder they are aborted or abandoned... or simply too many people who dont wanna have children. Sure blame the economy... but thats only part of the larger problem... which is the MENTALITY.

And one thing that really pisses me off are all those music objectifying women and bragging about being a tough gangsta and all the bling and how much money they make... Fuck that. Do you think those people will still produce those music if nobody bought them? Do you think they will still objectify women if women wont spread their legs for them?

That kind of music has brainwashed the youth to behave in a frivolous manner. To chase that which is superficial. Men are told... that to get women and be successful, you have to be a gengsta or act tough... Women are told... that its perfectly ok to dress up like a skank and let these thugs violate their bodies. And to be more focused on their outside appearance and to be thin so that they will fit in.

The previous paragraph about music may sound like a thread hijack but it isnt. That is to illustrate the relationship between the frivolous music and the mind state of the youth today.

And oh... the temptation to HATE these people is very strong. But I must say that is one of my daily struggles. To stop hating them but instead... praying for them and feeling sorry for them. And NOT HATING them requires strength, perseverance, and willpower.

that darn rock and roll caused all our problems!

kyupol

Are these families really broken? Isn't it better for incompatible spouses to seperate rather than to just "stay together for the children?" What message does a loveless marriage teach a child?

Everybody likes the easy way out. Sticking it out and working things out together sends a message to the children that they must learn to stick it out in the future. Through thick and thin, through good times and bad times. Stick it out. Sticking it out requires patience, and perseverance, and a strong willpower. Which are virtues by themselves.

Even though I don't really agree with my parents, my parents stuck it out for me and my brothers and up to now they are still together. Even though hanging out with them or either one of them for extended periods has a 90% chance to create a conflict... I still admire them for the fact that they stuck it out together through thick and thin.

And whenever I see an old couple in the newspaper who have been together for more than 60 years, I could not help but admire and salute these people... for being part of a STRONG generation.

And at the same time I also feel sad because those people are gonna disappear from the earth in a matter of a few years (old age lol).

Oh well... guess you can say I was born behind of my time. :( And yes my kind will disappear.

And I don't how you justify this objectification argument? Sure women are objectified, but you seem to imply this is only true in this era.

Not only women are objectified. Men and children as well.

Every self-respecting and respectful male is nothing but a walking wallet. If not for my education I guess I'da become a walking ATM for a woman. lol

Children are seen as burdens. No wonder they are aborted or abandoned... or simply too many people who dont wanna have children. Sure blame the economy... but thats only part of the larger problem... which is the MENTALITY.

And one thing that really pisses me off are all those music objectifying women and bragging about being a tough gangsta and all the bling and how much money they make... Fuck that. Do you think those people will still produce those music if nobody bought them? Do you think they will still objectify women if women wont spread their legs for them?

That kind of music has brainwashed the youth to behave in a frivolous manner. To chase that which is superficial. Men are told... that to get women and be successful, you have to be a gengsta or act tough... Women are told... that its perfectly ok to dress up like a skank and let these thugs violate their bodies. And to be more focused on their outside appearance and to be thin so that they will fit in.

The previous paragraph about music may sound like a thread hijack but it isnt. That is to illustrate the relationship between the frivolous music and the mind state of the youth today.

And oh... the temptation to HATE these people is very strong. But I must say that is one of my daily struggles. To stop hating them but instead... praying for them and feeling sorry for them. And NOT HATING them requires strength, perseverance, and willpower.

Nice way to ignore my point. So you think that a couple of rock videos means that women have it worse these days? Perhaps they should go back to being barefoot and pregnant?

And children? I remember the good old days when children were silently abused and it was a disgrace for "nice" families to discuss it. Where young girls were sent to back alley abortions because family honor was more important than the girls health. Before that there was child labour. Not to mention institutions like orphaneges and relocation programs which amounted to forced servitude. This leave it to beaver thing you pine for never really existed.

And men??? Come on really. Do men now have to moan and bitch they are objectified??? This is like "reverse discrimination", its bunk. Men, especially white men, have all the power, so its not stereotyping...ITS TRUE!!!!!

An congratulations to you, but I feel its narrowminded to assume that all couples should stay to gether or be branded lazy by folks like you. Sometimes marriage is a mistake. I feel that loveless, arguing parents pass on bad messages to their kids that they are often doomed to repeat. This attitude of yours also precludes the possibility of adults, having realized their mistake, becoming civil, co-supportive and even freindly parents showing their kids what is it like to be an adult and be respectful in even a bad situation.

Nope to people who think as you it's either one dad, one mom or its a "broken" family.

And lets not forget the orignal intent of my post, Gays, Lesbians, Bi, Transgendered, etc. Surely there is a much more enlightened climate for these members of our society? And surely that's a good thing, right? Or do you propose we continue denying them rights, stigmatizing them, attempting to "cure" them, prevent them from obtaining jobs, force them into secret lives, shaming them?? that was the good old days for gay people.

I can't imagine even you would want that again.

kyupol
Everybody likes the easy way out. Sticking it out and working things out together sends a message to the children that they must learn to stick it out in the future. Through thick and thin, through good times and bad times. Stick it out. Sticking it out requires patience, and perseverance, and a strong willpower. Which are virtues by themselves.

So when a guy knocks up his high school sweetheart, and he becomes an alcoholic who hits his wife and burns his kids with cigarettes.... they should just persevere, right? Because leaving such a man would be (oh no!) THE EASY WAY OUT.

Divorce is quitting, yes. And sometimes quitting is the smartest thing to do.

And whenever I see an old couple in the newspaper who have been together for more than 60 years, I could not help but admire and salute these people... for being part of a STRONG generation.

And at the same time I also feel sad because those people are gonna disappear from the earth in a matter of a few years (old age lol).

Right... because people today don't have what it takes anymore. Keep telling yourself that.

And I don't how you justify this objectification argument? Sure women are objectified, but you seem to imply this is only true in this era.

Not only women are objectified. Men and children as well.

Every self-respecting and respectful male is nothing but a walking wallet. If not for my education I guess I'da become a walking ATM for a woman. lol

Children are seen as burdens. No wonder they are aborted or abandoned... or simply too many people who dont wanna have children. Sure blame the economy... but thats only part of the larger problem... which is the MENTALITY.

Wait a minute... I thought the previous generation was better. But how could that be? Because the things you're talking about here are more symptomatic of previous generations than the present. One income families... the father working, the mother staying at home. Is that not "nothing but a walking wallet"? "Children are burdens"? What about 'children are to be seen and not heard'? Surely you don't mean to imply that people cared about children in the past more than they do now. Sheer folly!

And one thing that really pisses me off are all those music objectifying women and bragging about being a tough gangsta and all the bling and how much money they make... Fuck that. Do you think those people will still produce those music if nobody bought them? Do you think they will still objectify women if women wont spread their legs for them?

That kind of music has brainwashed the youth to behave in a frivolous manner. To chase that which is superficial. Men are told... that to get women and be successful, you have to be a gengsta or act tough... Women are told... that its perfectly ok to dress up like a skank and let these thugs violate their bodies. And to be more focused on their outside appearance and to be thin so that they will fit in.

What you're talking about is Gangsta Rap. And its hardly representative of music. Its a small genre. Please don't exaggerate it to be what it is not. Turn on your TV now and try to find a video with ass shaking and gold teeth. Tell me how many videos you have to watch before you find one.



Your problem is that you have a severe case of rose-colored glasses.

We are better at somethings now and worse at others.

Trial and error.

Like TnTComic and I lol we persevere.

kyupol

Are these families really broken? Isn't it better for incompatible spouses to seperate rather than to just "stay together for the children?" What message does a loveless marriage teach a child?

Everybody likes the easy way out. Sticking it out and working things out together sends a message to the children that they must learn to stick it out in the future. Through thick and thin, through good times and bad times. Stick it out. Sticking it out requires patience, and perseverance, and a strong willpower. Which are virtues by themselves.

Message: Misery loves company. In short, I think the above in inaccurate. A Separation or divorce doesn't mean responsibilities are shirked. That's a totally separate decision.

Even though I don't really agree with my parents, my parents stuck it out for me and my brothers and up to now they are still together. Even though hanging out with them or either one of them for extended periods has a 90% chance to create a conflict... I still admire them for the fact that they stuck it out together through thick and thin.

Nothing wrong with respecting that, but I could easily throw up a post about how I respect my parents for making the smart decision to get while the getting was good, and finding someone they could have a fulfilling life with *and* still raising children sucessfully.

And whenever I see an old couple in the newspaper who have been together for more than 60 years, I could not help but admire and salute these people... for being part of a STRONG generation.

A nice sentiment, but sometimes people stay together because they are weak, and afraid of going it on their own.

Every self-respecting and respectful male is nothing but a walking wallet. If not for my education I guess I'da become a walking ATM for a woman. lol

its a shame you see yourself that way. I know there are other people who do as well, but you're projecting.

Children are seen as burdens. No wonder they are aborted or abandoned... or simply too many people who dont wanna have children. Sure blame the economy... but thats only part of the larger problem... which is the MENTALITY.

And one thing that really pisses me off are all those music objectifying women and bragging about being a tough gangsta and all the bling and how much money they make... Fuck that. Do you think those people will still produce those music if nobody bought them? Do you think they will still objectify women if women wont spread their legs for them?

thats...disturbing. Applying it to everyone is...well, completely inaccurate and unfair.

That kind of music has brainwashed the youth to behave in a frivolous manner. To chase that which is superficial. Men are told... that to get women and be successful, you have to be a gengsta or act tough... Women are told... that its perfectly ok to dress up like a skank and let these thugs violate their bodies. And to be more focused on their outside appearance and to be thin so that they will fit in.

We'd have a perfect world if it weren't for those damn kids and their music, and the way kids dress! Shameful. Guess what? Our parents said the same thing about a lot of our fashions (still do, for some of us)

You really shouldn't let yourself get old.

And oh... the temptation to HATE these people is very strong. But I must say that is one of my daily struggles. To stop hating them but instead... praying for them and feeling sorry for them. And NOT HATING them requires strength, perseverance, and willpower.

Why not, then we can add all the "hate" as yet another sign of the world coming to and end. :P

I think you can not hate them by trying to remember what you were like at that age.

D'oh!! I hate it when common sense chloroforms a debate!!!

8D

Nice way to ignore my point. So you think that a couple of rock videos means that women have it worse these days? Perhaps they should go back to being barefoot and pregnant?

I have nothing against women going to work. Its actually a good thing. Extra income for the family. I believe a man and woman should work together to support their family.

And men??? Come on really. Do men now have to moan and bitch they are objectified??? This is like "reverse discrimination", its bunk. Men, especially white men, have all the power, so its not stereotyping...ITS TRUE!!!!!

Women are given preferential treatment by the law. If a domestic disturbance occurs and it happened to be started by the woman... Lets say she hits me 100x then I retaliate by pushing her against the wall and screaming at her face? For sure I... as a man... will be guilty until proven innocent.

Why is "violence against women" the one being constantly advertised? It can be the other way around. Men are painted as evil and potential abusers. That is why the next time I see a woman and child in distress, I WILL NOT help because I might be branded as a rapist/pedophile or both.

And companies have "quotas" to fill in that are based on a person's gender and skin color rather than the SKILLS and what that person can contribute to the company.

Making hiring decisions based on gender and skin color. Isnt that discrimination?

So when a guy knocks up his high school sweetheart, and he becomes an alcoholic who hits his wife and burns his kids with cigarettes.... they should just persevere, right? Because leaving such a man would be (oh no!) THE EASY WAY OUT.

Divorce is quitting, yes. And sometimes quitting is the smartest thing to do.

Yes I agree with your divorce position here.

But unfortunately, NOT ALL divorce cases happen because of that.

I believe that divorce should only be allowed in the event of domestic abuse or a cheating partner.

Enlightened era of sexual freedom??

In this thread, both the good and bad things about this era have been pointed out. So if there are good and bad things, how can a period be considered "enlightened"?

Remember... the cure can be worse than the disease...

kyupol
Why is "violence against women" the one being constantly advertised? It can be the other way around.

Because its the most common.

kyupol
And companies have "quotas" to fill in that are based on a person's gender and skin color rather than the SKILLS and what that person can contribute to the company.

Making hiring decisions based on gender and skin color. Isnt that discrimination?

Examples, please. I know of no place that has quotas.

kyupol
I believe that divorce should only be allowed in the event of domestic abuse or a cheating partner.

That's pretty narrow-minded. There's countless factors that can split a couple. I've had two different married friends of mine get divorced simply because they grew apart as they grew older. They didn't have children, they didn't have substance abuse problems, there was no physical abuse... they just grew apart. People change as they get older, and sometimes a mutual decision is made that two people would be happier apart. Isn't that better? Two people living happier lives on their own, instead of two people living unhappily together?

I think you have this strange notion that marriage itself is virtuous. That simply being married is a good thing. I don't cotton to that. People are sold a bill of goods that you go through a process in life that incorporates marriage and raising children. Well, the problem is alot of people buy into that, and then figure out that maybe they were sold something that isn't for them. Thank god many of them figure it out before kids come into the picture.

Remember the scene in Fight Club where Brad Pitt is talking about his dad telling him to go to college, then get a job, get married, etc? "Now what?", he asks. People need to figure out on their own what makes them happy, instead of listening to other people telling them how to live their lives.

The period is "enlightened" because enlighten means "To give spiritual or intellectual insight to, To give information to; inform or instruct."

I would say this is an enlightened period because we can and do talk openly about the good and bad things. I'd say thats the first real step towards doing things better.


Kyupol asks:

>

Yes it can. I've been a volunteer for a local domestic violence group, and I can tell you, we certainly saw cases where a woman was the abuser. That's a very important thing to talk about, and a thing that needs to be recognized.

however - the vast majority of domestic violence situations are ones where a male is the abuser. Sorry, but it's just the truth. And the phrase "vast majority" should not be taken lightly here.

So if "violence against women" is contantly being advertised - and not the other way around - there is a good statistical reason. But I agree - we do need more resources for fighting domestic violence of all kinds.

The truth is, incredible multitudes of women used to be terribly abused and no one talked about it, and they had no place to go, and divorce was hard to come by. The truth is, the abuse of children used to go totally undocumented, unspoken, and unaddressed. The abuse of Gay, Lesbian and transgender people used to be epidemic. That was all a dark and terrible thing and those who winked at it - and those who wish we could go back to it - are simply misguided.

We do have all sorts of social ills we need to be working on. But the so called "sexual enlightenment" is hardly the problem. That's like saying that we should turn out the light because it shows you how messy your room is. I'd say, looking at things honestly is the first step in talking about where we want to be heading.

But when you say "the cure is worse than the disease" it kind of sounds like the disease wasn't bugging you much to start with. Well let me tell you - it was positively murder.

It all sorta depends on which end of the stick you were on.



edited because i typed "worth than the disease"

It's an enlightened period because the Indigos and Crystals make it so lol.

kyupol

Nice way to ignore my point. So you think that a couple of rock videos means that women have it worse these days? Perhaps they should go back to being barefoot and pregnant?

I have nothing against women going to work. Its actually a good thing. Extra income for the family. I believe a man and woman should work together to support their family.

And men??? Come on really. Do men now have to moan and bitch they are objectified??? This is like "reverse discrimination", its bunk. Men, especially white men, have all the power, so its not stereotyping...ITS TRUE!!!!!

Women are given preferential treatment by the law. If a domestic disturbance occurs and it happened to be started by the woman... Lets say she hits me 100x then I retaliate by pushing her against the wall and screaming at her face? For sure I... as a man... will be guilty until proven innocent.

Why is "violence against women" the one being constantly advertised? It can be the other way around. Men are painted as evil and potential abusers. That is why the next time I see a woman and child in distress, I WILL NOT help because I might be branded as a rapist/pedophile or both.

And companies have "quotas" to fill in that are based on a person's gender and skin color rather than the SKILLS and what that person can contribute to the company.

Making hiring decisions based on gender and skin color. Isnt that discrimination?

So when a guy knocks up his high school sweetheart, and he becomes an alcoholic who hits his wife and burns his kids with cigarettes.... they should just persevere, right? Because leaving such a man would be (oh no!) THE EASY WAY OUT.

Divorce is quitting, yes. And sometimes quitting is the smartest thing to do.

Yes I agree with your divorce position here.

But unfortunately, NOT ALL divorce cases happen because of that.

I believe that divorce should only be allowed in the event of domestic abuse or a cheating partner.

Enlightened era of sexual freedom??

In this thread, both the good and bad things about this era have been pointed out. So if there are good and bad things, how can a period be considered "enlightened"?

Remember... the cure can be worse than the disease...

Nice way to cherry pick points to respond to. I grow so tired of folks like you always pining for a simpler time that never existed.

People like to say that crime is worse these days, and yet we used to have tacitly legal cross burnings and lynchings, before that everybody carried guns and shot people for looking at them the wrong way. People only remember the fresh baked bread and don't ever consider the black, or Irish, or Italian, or Jewish, or Chinese man that was denied basic human dignity in this country by white folks. Hell even poor white folks were denied a share of the American dream by rich white folks at one time or another.

When I say say enlightened, I mean
you are more likely to get busted for beating your wife,
you are less likely to get beaten up for walking hand in hand down the street if you're a gay couple,
pedophiles more likely to get convicted and have their name posted to warn parents, you're less likely to be disowned by your parents if you come out to them,
when a young girl is about to have sex she is more likely to have it explained to her so she can make an informed decision like abstaining or wearing protection and avoiding a tragic unwanted pregnancy or STD,
you are more likely to get a fair trial than a lynch mob,
the list goes on....

There's a great book called The Good Old Days, They Were Terrible which bares a lot of warts on this father knows best image of early America with it's supposed sturdy family values core. For every Aunt Bee placing apple pies on the windowsil, there was an injustice being commited, and ignored by society, that would make your nostril hairs curl with disgust.

And again at the risk of futility remind you I started this because I was discussing gay people. I notice you haven't included them in your swiss cheese reponses. Perhaps you are afraid to betray a bias to an enlightened crowd of follks like us.

Do you really think things used to be better in the good old days when gay people were oppressed, tortured and considered freaks, perverts and affronts to god by most Americans?

Luckily we are more enlightened and that kind of attitude is only still held by stubborn zealots and hateful bigots.

I don't think that divorce is "taking the easy way out", and as a perfectly sane, emotionally stable, and all-around normal product of a "broken home" I take offense to that.
I'm really glad my parents are divorced, and I truly admire my mom for having the guts to leave my dad. It was a very difficult thing for her to do, but she did it not just for 'compatibility reasons', but for other stuff too. Afterward, she had to work two jobs to support my sister and me, meanwhile saving up her money so we could get a house (we lived at my grandparents' house for a while.) Now she's remarried, and I have an adorable little brother, and life is pretty sweet. I have a very good relationship with both my stepdad and my dad, and I don't feel like my home is broken at all. I get two christmases!! I feel like my home is fuller than ever, and it's really nice.

Kristen Gudsnuk
I don't think that divorce is "taking the easy way out", and as a perfectly sane, emotionally stable, and all-around normal product of a "broken home" I take offense to that.
I'm really glad my parents are divorced, and I truly admire my mom for having the guts to leave my dad. It was a very difficult thing for her to do, but she did it not just for 'compatibility reasons', but for other stuff too. Afterward, she had to work two jobs to support my sister and me, meanwhile saving up her money so we could get a house (we lived at my grandparents' house for a while.) Now she's remarried, and I have an adorable little brother, and life is pretty sweet. I have a very good relationship with both my stepdad and my dad, and I don't feel like my home is broken at all. I get two christmases!! I feel like my home is fuller than ever, and it's really nice.

As a fellow "broken home" person I agree too.

when I was very young, my mom was married to her high school sweetheart. He never abused anybody, but however he was an compete loser in a lot of ways. For one thing, he didn't work and never wanted to work. Just wanted to live off the gorvenment.
My mom was okay with that at first, because she figured that she could just be the breadwinner while he's the homemaker dad who cleans and watches the children. But....my "dad" as I use the term loosely here, he wasn't the homemaker at all. instead, he would just leave the house in a total mess and leave me and my brother all alone at home while he went out with his buddies doing competely nothing expect party. keep in mind that I was pratically just a toddler at the time, so that wasn't exactly responsble of him. He had no intention to change all that, nethier... despite all the the consueling and the effort that my mom tried to do to make that doomed relationship work.

My mother wanted somebody who would be responsble, and be able to take care of the family while she was off working. Somebody who would be a nice, caring man.... and well, he wasn't it. So of course she had to dicorvce him despite the fact that the two of them had oringally married because it was "the right thing to do" for the fact that she had been pregant at the time. When a relationship doesn't work despite all the effort you put into it, it's definely time to call it quits.

Now? I have a nice stepdad who I conidser more of my "real dad" than my real dad. And now my mother's very happy with him... and now our family is more stable than ever as compared to the past when my mom was married to that loser high school sweetheart.

I think divorce is sometimes the easy way out, and other times the right thing to do. There are just too many situations to make one blanket statement.

A girl I know divorced her husband, and it turned out it was the right thing to do. He's done jail time and multiple attempts at drug rehab since the divorce, and thankfully she didn't have to be dragged down with him. (and thankfully they never had kids)

However, it's reasonable to think that some divorces are simply done because some couples are too lazy or stubborn to work things out. Some divorces are because people refuse to change, or their parents keep meddling and interfering.

So I'd say it can swing either way, but you'd have to understand each individual situation.

Wait, are you guys trying to tell me that what I do on Post and Fourth with a wad of ben's is wrong!?


I regret nothing I do on my Saturday nights. Nothing.

lol its like... 5 vs 1. lol!

I'm not "ignoring" what you're saying. I just dont wanna repeat myself since I believe I already said everything I wanna say.

I'm also not trying to take this as a pissing contest. So just tell yourself you "won" if that's gonna make you feel better about yourself.

However... your responses only served to justify the practical precautions I've taken for myself in this so-called "enlightened era of sexual freedom".

DAJB
I guess, like everything else, enlightenment is only relative.

Best comment on the debate here I think. :)

Yeah, looking at the past from our current perspective is iffy... We can look back and go: "Ooo ah, how wonderful and rosy and perfect!"
Or we can look back and go: "how cruel, inhuman, and awful!"

But in between both has to be a happy mean. I think relativity is the problem, times were not really better or worse for much of the past, things weren't cheaper or more expensive, things were simply so holistically different that we at this point in time are completely unable to correctly relate to them. We bring up specifics without the perspective of proper context of the whole. All we can ever do is speculate.

The condition of women in the past is a case in point. The common way of seeing it these days is to look at them as being marginalised and treated like children/slave/mentally retarded for all of history until the 20thC. But I would contend that this is incorrect. It based on a viewing of a mainly male account of history that celebrates and focuses on the male role, as if that was the only important thing to focus on. So obviously, if WE try and use that perspective we will have a skewed idea of the role of women. And most female accounts are those of a wealthy elite who are cosseted, and largely isolated from the contemporary social reality of their day... I mean, read some of the Bronte fiction or whatever and tell me that's how normal people lived? HA!

You have to read between the lines though. There is a lot of history out there that gives you a better picture of how things were. Throughout the past both men and women worked at much the same jobs, this was common as far as I've been able to see. Where social segregation of roles became more prominent was in the upper middle classes and upper classes. During the 18th and 19th centuries this social segregation actually seems to have spread a bit more and the position of women actually made worse by this: less opportunities for work for women. Until that situation came to a head in the early 20thC with the advent of universal suffrage for women. -interestingly in most countries universal suffrage for men had only happened a few decades earlier. In some cases, only a few years.

History is more cyclical than linear. Things don't really get better and better, it's more that they get worse and then go through a period of correction, and then get worse and so on. An example is the 1960's and "sexual liberation", but this was mostly a reaction to the conformity of the 1950's, which in its turn was in reaction to the permissiveness and social upheaval of the 1940's. -I'm being simplistic with the characterisations of decades here, but it's a common standard.
The 1930's had seen a return of conformity in reaction to the wildness of the 1920's which in turn had been largely bought about by the war in the 1910's...

VERY simplistic, but it just goes to show how circular trends, the folly of being too linear in our views (the idea that things get better or things get worse over time), and the folly of taking cases in history out of the contexts in which they belong.

ozoneocean
Yeah, looking at the past from our current perspective is iffy... We can look back and go: "Ooo ah, how wonderful and rosy and perfect!"
Or we can look back and go: "how cruel, inhuman, and awful!"

Well yes and no. While things are not always rising upward, there seems to be a trend towards enlightenment, it is hard to unlearn things. Once the cat is out od the bag, say for example discovering the world is not flat, or even seeing a picture of the earth from space, it is hard to erase that from the collective unconscious. When a woman finally does become president, then similarly it will be hard to argue women's inferiority to men which has been the hallmark of our patriarchal society since the myth of Adam and Eve.

ozoneocean
History is more cyclical than linear. Things don't really get better and better, it's more that they get worse and then go through a period of correction, and then get worse and so on. An example is the 1960's and "sexual liberation", but this was mostly a reaction to the conformity of the 1950's, which in its turn was in reaction to the permissiveness and social upheaval of the 1940's. -I'm being simplistic with the characterisations of decades here, but it's a common standard. The 1930's had seen a return of conformity in reaction to the wildness of the 1920's which in turn had been largely bought about by the war in the 1910's...

Excellent point. Social science by design is dodgy because it relies on an X factor: people. But it's clear that attitudes follow a natural rhythm. Whether you are looking at a graph of stock prices or social attitudes, you see that there are support points where there is much resistance to prevent a trend from crossing and going too extreme. It's human nature to be conservative and to view drastic change with fear, so natural corrections do apply,but as I stated above the general trend, irrespective of the short term fluctuations displays improvement.

ozoneocean
The condition of women in the past is a case in point.

Actually I would like once again to point out that my original comments were aimed at the relaxing social mores with respects to tolerance of homosexuals in America. I still feel this is one aspect of this discussion that you cannnot deny shows that we are on the uptrend of freedom and equality for this long maligned sector of our society.

kyupol
lol its like... 5 vs 1. lol!

Hey I'm from Jersey I'm an equal opportunity douchebag.

Take a close look at this thread I pester everyone with my snarkiness. lol!

kyupol
I'm not "ignoring" what you're saying. I just dont wanna repeat myself since I believe I already said everything I wanna say.
I'm also not trying to take this as a pissing contest. So just tell yourself you "won" if that's gonna make you feel better about yourself.

I already feel great about myself. I don't need to win an argument with you to feel that way. In fact its a little too easy to refute arguments like yours which stand on such shaky ground that you feel you can't respond in an open debate forum with anything better than, I know you are but what am I?

And you are ignoring for the fourth time now by my count, whether or not you agree or disagree that my original contention that gay people have it better off now that we have a more enlightened attitude to alternative sexual preferences. Isn't it enlightened to treat them fairly with the belief that they are people worthy of the same(or soon to be the same) treatment as heterosuxuals in our society.

I'd be happy to clarify my thoughts for you with no malice or braggadocio if you care, although I suspect you don't like hearing from me for some reason.

I can't understand why challenging each others ideas is so wrong in a debate forum, maybe I missed something.

kyupol
However... your responses only served to justify the practical precautions I've taken for myself in this so-called "enlightened era of sexual freedom".

Wha? huh!?

Hawk
I think divorce is sometimes the easy way out, and other times the right thing to do. There are just too many situations to make one blanket statement.

A girl I know divorced her husband, and it turned out it was the right thing to do. He's done jail time and multiple attempts at drug rehab since the divorce, and thankfully she didn't have to be dragged down with him. (and thankfully they never had kids)

However, it's reasonable to think that some divorces are simply done because some couples are too lazy or stubborn to work things out. Some divorces are because people refuse to change, or their parents keep meddling and interfering.

So I'd say it can swing either way, but you'd have to understand each individual situation.

Couldn't you argue that if a couple has so little commitment to each other that they become too lazy to work things out then they were essentially a bad match in the first place? Marriage shouldn't be a gotcha institution. "Oh well you're married now so suck it up and make the best of it."

I think to truly honor marriage is to NOT participate in a sham of a marriage with no love or respect. After all, people who truly love each other rarely get divorced because they are lazy.

If a marriage has no love or mutual apreciation then it's just a piece of paper and an expensive party with a lame band and crappy cake.

bobhhh
Couldn't you argue that if a couple has so little commitment to each other that they become too lazy to work things out then they were essentially a bad match in the first place? Marriage shouldn't be a gotcha institution. "Oh well you're married now so suck it up and make the best of it."

I think to truly honor marriage is to NOT participate in a sham of a marriage with no love or respect. After all, people who truly love each other rarely get divorced because they are lazy.

If a marriage has no love or mutual apreciation then it's just a piece of paper and an expensive party with a lame band and crappy cake.

I really do agree with everything you said.

Isn't it funny how so many people claim that marriage is sacred and should be treated like that, but then those same people turn around and demands that certain people should "suck it up and make the best of it", even though it would be turning Marriage into a total mockery and a compete sham?

talk out your ass about how something that is supposed to be full of love is important, but then turn around and treat it like nothing but a stone-cold insitution where misery loves company. pfft.

bobhhh
Couldn't you argue that if a couple has so little commitment to each other that they become too lazy to work things out then they were essentially a bad match in the first place?

You could argue that, and I see your point. But if somebody were to give up right away on a marriage, I don't see why they'd bother trying to make any other marriage work. They're probably the type who think that if you find the "right spouse" you can just get married and your marriage will be perfect. That's a misconception. Marriages take work and adjustment, even if you've found the perfect mate.

Not only that, but if two people were married to each other and don't have enough commitment to each other to try, then they're stupid for ever getting married in the first place. I think the only people that truly fit that scenario are drunks and FOX reality show contestants. Anyone else at least thinks they love the other person. And if they once thought so, isn't it worth giving it a shot?

Who gives a shit about the sanctity of marriage? Honestly? Its a friggin' contract, and people fuck those up all the time and people don't get in a toot about it. Two people love each other, or claim to love each other... and? You need a legal procedure to prove it?

TnTComic
Who gives a shit about the sanctity of marriage? Honestly? Its a friggin' contract, and people fuck those up all the time and people don't get in a toot about it. Two people love each other, or claim to love each other... and? You need a legal procedure to prove it?

People give a shit because it's part of the culture of the United States--I won't talk about how other countries raise their young. From the start, all the cartoons, stories, and hell important news has been about marriage from the time before cognizance until one's present day.

It's the idea that "marriage is the way to go" that's been driven with a sledgehammer into our minds from day one that compels people to marry.

It's not always about the benefits of the contract. It's a kind of subconscious urge. As an example, I dated a girl once who told me, straight up, she wanted to get married after she graduated from high school. No other reason did she give other than she wanted to. I suppose it's a bad idea to base a lot off a comment like that, but that's not the only incident of that kind I've been privy to.

So, about that "sanctity of marriage" thing. People think, "if that's not sacred, what then can I hope for?" Failed "American Dreams" for the win.

There are so many excellent responses and so much has been said, I'm gonna' throw out a few things.

First.
The title drew me in. Enlightened era of sexual freedom?? In response to what I infer from the title...Yes, we do live in an era of enlightened sexual freedom. Sex, although still naughty is talked about, embraced, and readily available at a click. But, upon reading the posts, I don't think that's what you were aiming for...so:

Divorce: kyupol says, "I believe that divorce should only be allowed in the event of domestic abuse or a cheating partner."

Awww, honey...You are obviously not now nor have ever been married, huh? Based off of the description of you parent's marriage you don't have a very positive comparison. There are many levels of abuse and subjecting yourself and your spouse to a loveless union is one of them. Especially when life is so much more worth livin' when you are perfectly matched, why settle for so-so? People are allowed to make mistakes, hope you choose wisely the first time around and not have to eat tasty crow for your narrow opinion. The fact that a couple have procreated should have NO factor in whether or not you stay married to a person you don't love. Life is about living, not sustaining.

On Objectification of Women...Kyupol and Bobhhh:
Guys, you are dudes...and really any insight you hope to gleem into the state of woman's issues is honestly, moot. But, thanks for tryin'. The fact that it's even brought up clues you into to the patriarchal dominion of the world...But, us little ladies are workin' it just fine, thanks. Kyupol, Bobhhh is a bit older than yourself and if memory serves, he is hitched...so, he may have some valid arguments in the realm of gender issues that you may want to consider...You are only 23 man and it seems from a somewhat sheltered upbringing. Times they have a'changed. (Kyupol, I noticed on your profile page that you have "Family Guy" listed as one of your favorite television shows and I'm wondering if you fully comprehend the satire.) Then you start blamin' music...LOLLOLLOL! They blamed Elvis and Kiss too. You watch "Southpark" and yet, I'm not so sure you're capable of understanding context. You're gettin' old before your time. (mapaghimagsik nailed it.)

On "Those Happy Golden Years"
Kyupol said, "And whenever I see an old couple in the newspaper who have been together for more than 60 years, I could not help but admire and salute these people... for being part of a STRONG generation.

And at the same time I also feel sad because those people are gonna disappear from the earth in a matter of a few years (old age lol)."

TNT responded with "Right... because people today don't have what it takes anymore. Keep telling yourself that."

Let me retort...In fact...No I better not because it is sure to contain profanity. But, listen to TNT (By, the way...TNT...I give a shit about marriage.) and man...I feel for the future, Mrs. Kyupol.

Which finally brings me to: "And lets not forget the orignal intent of my post, Gays, Lesbians, Bi, Transgendered, etc. Surely there is a much more enlightened climate for these members of our society?" from bobhhh.

Yes, yes it is a more enlightened time than the days of yore...Grass is always greener. I'd much rather be livin' now than in the past...Although I'd really prefer the future where hopefully such discussions won't be anything but a memory of days past instead of the purging of antiquity through painful rhetoric. But, I think you are saying that this isn't a more enlightened time. If that's the case? When WAS a more enlightened time? I think they are most assuridly better off than in decades past...Should people be allowed to their own "pursuits of happiness" as long as they don't physcially prevent someone else from seeking their own? Yes.

Thanks MB for your response, and I dig what you re saying, maybe I can clear up this one point.

maritalbliss
Guys, you are dudes...and really any insight you hope to gleem into the state of woman's issues is honestly, moot. But, thanks for tryin'.

My remarks about the objectifyication of women come from the perspective of cringing in embarrassment for the words, thoughts and actions of pig headed chauvanistic males. It's patriarchal douchebags like that that make the more respectful of us look bad.

Actually my mom had five sisters and aside from me and my brother, there was only one more cousin out of 25 total that was male. To say that I was exposed to the point of view of strong dominant females growing up is kind of like saying the sun is a bit warm. My wife often says its amazing how that as much as my attitudes could have been so shaped by women, I didn't actually end up gay!!! I know she's just kidding, but it is a fact that I hate watching sports on TV, and I get mad when women are treated like hunks of meat , although I do still have a y chromosome affection for action movies with lots of explosions.

Go figure.

maritalbliss
(By, the way...TNT...I give a shit about marriage.)

But why?

My sister-in-law is buggin' out lately because she got engaged and is getting cold feet. She's been with her fiance for years, everyone loves the dude... but now she's starting to freak. Why?

I've been married for 5 years, and we were together for around 4 years before that. The marriage didn't make me love my wife more or less. My father-in-law has been with the same woman for over 15 years, but they have no desire to marry. They are monogamous, live together, love each other, raised 4 kids, et cetera. But they don't want to be married.

All this hullabaloo over a social contract. So I ask, why do you give a shit about marriage?