kyupol
Now please explain to me. The existence of massive gangstaism, skankism, corporate piggyism, suicide kingism, roadrageism etc... etc... etc... that seems to be very all too common right now.

I dont need to travel a thousand miles to find them. All I need to do is go out in the street... and one way or another, I'd find such shitbirds.


So all these shitbirds need mental help then?

I'm not sure what all of these mean but I'll do my best to express my veiw points on them.

"massive gangstaism" I assume you are either talking about crime or gangsta rappers on TV.

For the pass twenty five years violent crimes have actually been on the decline in North America and Western Europe. Of course media coverage of crimes has sky rocketed (and so have police procedural shows) Leading to the apperance have things getting worse.

Skankism I assume you are refuring to women dressing more provocatively and/or acting in a more sexually agressive fashion.

Women have as much right to dress and act the way they want as men do. Do they some times dress wrong and act wrong? Of course but so do men and that is their choice to make. ((BTW not having proper sex education in schools is endangering lives.))

corporate piggyism I assume you are refuring to corperate crime.

Well first of all it is a crime so we have an entire system set up to deal with it. But it also isn't new: many of the Crusades, while billed as religious wars were little more then petty land grabs; the Spanish Inquisition and Witch Hunts were extreamly finacially rewarding to the church; thousands of people even whole countries were made rich off the travisty of colonialization and then there is slavery which again made a lot of people very rich by turning their fellow human beings into property.

The above examples all took place in a time when people were much more religious than the general population is today yet the "morality" of religion did not pervent them from happening and in all cases it was ultimately economic factores that ended them.

suicide kings I assume you mean baravidio and postureing that leads to people dying.

Well that's a combination of stupidity and human nature. But I will remind you that duels used to be much more common.

road rage People freaking out while driving understressful conditions and going lateral on those around them.

More people are driving now than ever before but yes I would say people who express their internalized stress as a violent outburst on those around them would qualify as needing mental health.

I personally don't really understand atheism.

This is in no way a jab at any atheists here. I'm just saying that I don't understand what exactly the meaning is.

If you don't believe in God, fine. Whatever. There's about what, 5,000,000 people in Canada alone who don't believe in God. There are also about another five mil who don't belong to a religion. Does that mean they don't believe in God?

I have never belonged to a religion, and I doubt I ever will. But I still believe in God. Or a God, at least.

What I'm trying to say is why the big deal about atheism? Believe what you want to believe, it makes no difference.

If only everyone thought like that. Then there would be at least 75% less wars in this big, wide, wonderful world of ours.

Ugh.....religious debates confuse me.

I think the one reason why there's ahetists is because they don't WANT to believe in an god. Because otherwise they'd have to believe that an god made such a shitty world as Earth. That God allowed for there to be rapists and the like.

Yes, there's the whole "god gave us freewill" bit, but have it ever conidisered to you that those people just don't want to put the blame on an god and or any demons oppsing god.... and instead just preffer to believe in things like humans' accountabity for themselves when they do sick shit and the like.

instead of "He was tempted by satan or possessed by an demon when he did such awful, sick things!!" like a lot of highly religious people would like to believe whenever they hear of some good kid gone bad, athetists think: "Man, that kid was one sick fuck! I can't understand why he choose to do such a thing...At least they caught him, and he'll get his just deserts in prison."

To them, if an God really existed, then to them that would mean that alot of those sickos saying "God/Satan made me do it" could be possibly right, and thus denying those sickos any accountabity for thier actions at all.
Not to metion there's a lot of prayers, especcally the imporant ones that goes unanswered.... and what about the people who's suffering from an fatal diease who goes: "God's just testing my faith, testing how well I do in this situation."... what if they're right?
What kind of god would do that to his children....make them suffer so badly on purpose? what if he simply doesn't just care??

So I guess those people would rather believe that that god doesn't exist rather than to have the existence of an uncaring god in their minds.

keep in mind I'm not really an atheist, but I have a few friends who are. so I was just offering an viewpoint on this.

Honestly, Atheism makes the most sense out of any other belief and this is coming from a Christian.

But regardless of your beliefs (or un-beliefs?) humans are stupid regardless. Religion causes extreme conservatism but atheism creates an extreme arrogance and hatred towards anyone who's not, well, atheist.

Personality is more important than what you believe in. You could believe in the flying spaghetti monster but be the nicest guy in the world and that's all that is is important in life.

I think we need atheist politicians.

In God we Trust...All others Pay CASH.

Atom Apple
I think we need atheist politicians.

yo

Makes as much sense as an imaginary friend.

maritalbliss
Makes as much sense as an imaginary friend.

That's pretty funny and true. It seems to be just OK for people to have an imaginary "god" but if a kid has a imaginary friend there is something wrong with him. ;)

People are so used to the whole concept of a almighty god guy that they refuse to see all the problems and logic flaws with it. To me the idea is absurd, but i respect that other people might need something to believe in, some higher power. But that doesn't make it more true. It's still just a "imaginary friend", although on a higher level.

I agree, atheist (or agnostic) politians would be great. Separation of church and state and all.

But it'll NEVER happen. Not with the southern states. Christian = Republican anymore. My mother is living proof. She has to vote Republican (ie: christian) or she'll go to hell.

Unless the atheist politian just lies and says he's (she's) christian. And what's a politian without lies, anyway? ;0)


My 2 cents: I consider myself Agnostic, although raised Catholic. I cannot prove either way that there is a God or isn't a God, therefore I don't take a side. And like Chris Rock said in "Dogma", "Belief is a strong a word. I think it's better to have a good idea. You can change ideas. It's harder to change a belief". I live most of my life according to how I was raised; the golden rule, the main teachings of the Bible. But I don't swear by everything the Bible says, just take it as a good basis to lead your life. I also realize how long ago it was written, and take that into consideration. The Bible is good, but some people take it too seriously, or use it as a crutch on things that make them uncomfortable (homosexuality). Saw Jon Stewart live recently. He joked that right next to the blurb about "homosexuality being an abomination" and "Paul shouldn't sleep next to John" or whatever, it also said "shellfish is an abomination". Man, everything back then was "an abomination". Get those picket signs out: "God hates fags... and scallops!" Jon rocks.

Someone said earlier that there would be a lot more peace if everyone just aallowed others to have their own beliefs and stopped trying to convert others. I'm totally down with that.

okay, I'm done. ;0)

dgriff13
And like Chris Rock said in "Dogma", "Belief is a strong a word. I think it's better to have a good idea. You can change ideas. It's harder to change a belief".

Wow. Chris Rock said that? That's.....pretty damn smart.

LOL, right.. those were his lines in the movie. But I liked the quote, it explained how I feel about religion.

He is a pretty smart dude, tho. Here's something he said (for real!) in a stand-up performance (as best I could quote from watching the video)

"It's all about who you are as a person. What people don't seem to realize is that religious books were witten by MAN.. the Bible, the Koran, the Tora, all written by man. And they were written thousands of years ago, before there was renold's wrap, before there were refridgerators, before there was seasoning... a pork chop might kill ya! So, these people said, "Tell 'em GOD said don't eat it". But times have changed. Now we have renolds wrap, refridgerators, etc... now a pork chop's your friend!"

Clip is here, if you wanna see it:
http://www.cuts.com/cut/852d4baca4/

Funny how, to whoever posted this, his little rant makes him an "atheist". Say it's true however, that back then man made pork "an abomination" to keep people from eating it and getting sick, and it wasn't really God's decree... what else man could have decided should be "evil" as well? homosexuality, per chance? Maybe they were trying to encourage carrying on the species, lol...

Also makes me think... if someone today wrote a book and said it was God speaking to him (or her), and that there were these new laws to lead your life by, everyone would laugh, roll their eyes and lable the dude as crazy, no? But these guys back then writting these scriptures, they're perfectly sane. Just taking dictation from God.

I'm not saying any of this is true, just pondering... there's obviously no way to prove it. That's why I say I'm agnostic, I suppose.

I got some impression... That if you really look at the big picture. You'd realize that there isnt a sigular point (it was rather obvious) of view on Antheist, Thesist, religions or so on. Its such a broad subject that is riddled with diffrent perpective that I have to say... That there isnt anyone who's right or who's wrong because in a nutshell there's no rock soild evidence beside your own conclusion.

That's all I'm gonna say... I had a rather entertaining time reading this thread. Good arguements (or bad ones eitherway) makes for good brain matter bursting entertainment.

I believe in god, but its easy to be an atheist. Why because God does not just appear slap you in the face and say I'm god I know everything. In other words god doesn't make himself visable in his own form. Every reliogion is based on the HUMAN telling from a deity. No religion is perfect because man isn't perfect. God wouldn't need to edit his/her work, but man does. That why Atheism makes sense to me.

I am athiest. So yes athiesm makes sense to me. I wish I had discovered this thread sooner, because there were several arguments made by the thiesm side that I could disprove, but don't really want to bring up now. Such as religious people being more moral. (better educated people are less likely to be religious. education often counteracts criminal impulses. Thus though not directly linked, religious people are more likely to be criminal.)

In the past, atheism made sense to me because I was one. But now I believe in God and have been a Christian since 1998. The evidence I have examined is pretty overwhelming regarding this, and my life was a walking disaster while not following the creator of the universe. If anyone is in the Chicago area, I would be happy to convey this in person over coffee or something.

In argument to that, I've had a continual feeling of RELIEF ever since I stopped trying to believe in god.

I have been on both sides of this issue. I was an atheist/agnostic until I was 21 and for the last 12 years I've been a preacher of the gospel. What I've found in those 12 years of dealing with people from all walks of life and all kinds of belief systems may surprise you.
I've found that this is a topic that strikes to the core of most people, regardless of their stand on the issue. There is something about this that is so central to the human experience that everyone seems to have an opinion. Unfortunately, it is a topic that can get bogged down into a seemingly infinite number of sideroads, as we've seen here. A lot of times, you will find yourself arguing a series of very subjective points, and drifting from the central issues at hand. I'll try not to do that, but I am a preacher, and long-windedness is an occupational hazard.
I've found for the most part, atheists are not bad people, certainly not any worse than anyone else. People are atheists for a lot of different reasons. Some just have never been able to make sense out of what they correctly perceive to be a very cruel and bleak world. Some have seen some pretty horrible things and wonder how the God, specifically the God of the Bible, can allow it to happen. Some people have never taken an objective look at some of the proofs of the Bible. And some people just like their sin. That was me.
What I wanted to do was what I wanted to do, and I didn't need some book of mythology trying to make me feel guilty. So, I exhibited the unique behavior of humans to block out what they don't want to beleive. I didn't want to beleive that I had offended the law of a holy and righteous God, or that I would have to stand before Him one day and give an account of my rebellion in thought word and deed against my Creator. I chose not to beleive that although His righteousness would not allow Him to dismiss my sin, He provided a perfect sacrifice in the form of Jesus Christ to pay my sin debt for me, and by reliance on that sacrifice alone I could have my slate wiped clean and be restored to fellowship with my creator.
God had to show me that, and I remain convinced all these years later that God has to be the one to show peoepl that. I go and I talk to them about what He's done for me, and what the Bible says about what the future holds for them, but I don't agrue anymore. The Bible says that God has appointed a day in which he will will judge the world in righteousness. So rather than debate the finer points of stuff, I'll go find soembody that wants some real help while there is still time.

Myself, I see no logical reason to believe in the supernatural at all. It might be nice if there were magical forces and powers in the world - I certainly put them in some of my comics and stories. But I see no reason to think they are real.

I've studied various arguments for god or gods, but in the end, none of them stand up at all. For instance, the argument of "the Blind Watchmaker." This essentially states - "the Universe is complex, so there must be a designer." Complexity has to come from somewhere, right? But if I ask "Where did this designer come from?" the answer is "The designer is eternal, it doesn't come from anywhere." But that's silly.

The error here is to say "the universe has to come from somewhere" but "God does not have to come from somewhere." But this counters the original premise - if god doesnt need a designer, then why does the universe need one?

Logically, you don't multiply possibilities for no reason, The simplest answer is the best one until more information comes along. So far, the simplest answer to this question is "The universe is eternal" - there's no logical need (or justification!) for adding another step.

There is no doubt - the Universe is vast, we must regard it with awe, wonder, and humility. But surely, those reactions are exactly the opposite of saying "Aha, I know how the Universe works and who made it, and the guy who made it is my best pal, btw - we're so close that I can tell you that he doesn't like ham!"


(edited to remove off-topic references to creationism and religion)

Religion is really the response of a group of people to the "stimulus" they see as god (or gods, as the case may be). The response is as varied as the people are.

Now...maybe you experience the "stimulus" and don't have a group of people you agree with...so there's no "religion", just belief.

Maybe you participate in a religion but haven't experienced the "stimulus"..which makes you a religious hopeful, or socially religious.

Or, maybe you don't participate with a group of believers or experienced the "stimulus"...in which case you are typically atheist or agnostic.

There isn't really any basis to argue over the different "flavors" of religion, and certainly science or psychology can't adequately depict our relationship with the percieved "stimulus".......so we're left with something that is terribly intimate and etheric.

So...really both atheism and religious belief make complete sense...depending on how you personally relate to the presence or absence of the "stimulus".

I absolutely believe in God as I understand him. It makes sense to me. It's your job to work it out for yourself. I don't think you're going to read "the answer" here...because there are probably as many answers as there are people.

a-the-ism
noun
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
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re-li-gion
noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
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christianity
noun
1. a monotheistic system of beliefs and practices based on the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus as embodied in the New Testament and emphasizing the role of Jesus as savior
_______________________________________________________________________
sci-ence
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws
_______________________________________________________________________
Just wanted to clear that up.

Restated from the definitions, Religion and Atheism are similar in one very important category: They are belief systems.

If there was a God, all it did was create the Universe.

Insanity
Restated from the definitions, Religion and Atheism are similar in one very important category: They are belief systems.

Exactly. Atheism makes as much sense as any other religion.
It's a belief, not a proved fact obtained from a fair research.
Science is a wonderful tool to understand the world. Science is fun and true, but it can't prove that any gods exist or don't exist.
Why?
Because science isn't designed for sampling the mind of humans, for measuring the quantity of philosophy or finding the differentiation quotient of anger.
I believe in several gods. And I know they exist. But I can't prove this for anyone.
And I believe in science, and that the universe was created by accident and that the creatures of the world we live in (including ourselves) have been obtained by selection through several generations.

Aurora Moon
I think the one reason why there's ahetists is because they don't WANT to believe in an god.

Absolutely not. It would be much easier to believe in a god. The world is set up in such a manner that not only are religious beliefs socially acceptable, but they are preferable, and encouraged. Athiests are looked at in a negative and suspicious manner.

Athiests are bound by the rules of basic science, those being quite simple: observation, and by that token, detection. An athiest simply isn't willing to swallow the stories that people conjure up with zero evidence. Its a basic pattern of behavior that children are taught when the Santa Clause bubble is burst. However, the same reasons used to justify the idea that there is no Santa Clause are not applied to God by people of Faith. Why? I don't know. Its pretty simple reasoning. No one's met Santa Clause. No one's seen Santa Clause. So there's no Santa Clause. Basic stuff. I'd wager the tale of Santa Clause has done more to create potential athiests than any other spokesperson.

Someone
Apatheism (a portmanteau of atheism and apathy), also known as pragmatic or practical atheism, is a subset of atheism (when atheism is defined as lack of belief in deities, rather than specific disbelief in deities). An apatheist is someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that God, or any other supernatural being, exists or does not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of God as neither meaningful nor relevant to human affairs.

The eighteenth century French philosopher Denis Diderot, when accused of being an atheist, replied that he simply did not care whether God existed or not. In response to Voltaire, he wrote,

It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley; but not at all so to believe or not in God.

Later, Karl Marx would dismiss God as irrelevant. For Marx, since there is no meaning, value or purpose outside the historical process, both belief in God and the negation of God (i.e., atheism) were a waste of time. George Jacob Holyoake, the English Owenite lecturer who coined the term secularism held that secularists should not be militant freethinkers but should instead take no interest at all in religious questions because they were irrelevant.

My religion right there.

As a "non-beleiver" i am always amused when the faithful tell me that somehow, i have a belief just like them. That's silly.

And the whole atheist/agnostic thing is kind of annoying - i don't believe in the tooth fairy, but i don't need two words for that, to help you decide whether I am being sufficiently "open minded" on the topic. I simply don't believe in the tooth fairy. It's not a matter of "disbelief" vs "Uncertainty." I am pretty certain - but if new evidence comes along, well, sure, I'll take a look.

I have a friend who often says "Don't confuse God with the silly things that humans says about God." And that sounds pretty good, until at some point you notice that all there is to god is the silly things that humans say.

I suppose there might be an order and purpose to the universe - but i do not think I have met anyone who knows what it is.

I love how the only comparisons are to Christianity, and then partially to the other major monotheistic religions.

I know, they're the major religions, and the most likely to run into and whatnot, but still, a lot of people like to act like atheism is just opposed to Christians. If they were, then they'd be Anti-Christian, and that's all. I don't agree with atheism, but I agree with some of the points.

Like, people need to stop waiting for someone else to tell them what to do or what to believe in. In my beliefs, part of worship is testing what you know against new evidence, and changing or remaining the same based on the outcome- much like scientific method. Yes, I find comfort in what I believe, but I also accept responsibility for what goes on in my life.

My point is, not everyone who believes in "God"(whatever form he/she/it/they take) does it to escape from the world or responsibility. Also, while it makes for a nice little persecution complex, Atheists are NOT the only group of people who've experienced persecution, or being treated as weirdos and with suspicion. It's still more socially acceptable to be an atheist than to be a pagan.

MagickLorelai
Atheists are NOT the only group of people who've experienced persecution, or being treated as weirdos and with suspicion. It's still more socially acceptable to be an atheist than to be a pagan.

I wish people would change the definition of athiest to mean somebody who doesn't believe in a non-christian god. That way all the good christian folk out there, a-hatin' on the athiests, would realize that in their own little way, they are athiests.

hmmm.... this is an interesting topic. Although I can see where atheists are coming from, I myself do not believe that there isn't any god despite not belonging to a religion. I struggle with this as I do not know what to call myself as I have no label.. but maybe that's a good thing. ^-^
So far, we have managed to disprove most of the bible which leaves people in the dark as they no longer know what to believe in. Children and young adults tend to lean towards the same conclusion. There is a divine being out there, pulling strings and keeping things in order, yet it is not the god as described in the Bible. These days we talk about faith, but not faith in god as such, but faith in the higher power! These are only my observations so please correct me if I appear to be wrong ^-^...

I believe there's some argument that there is a "flying spaghetti monster" but that it is a non-interventionalist monster.

I'm much more in the "it is unknowable, and my reasoning says no, so I go with that reasoning until reality proves otherwise."

Great discussion!

As an athiest, I actually share a lot of beliefs with most people...

we don't believe in Odin
we don't believe in Thor
we don't believe in Zeus
we don't believe in Isis
we don't believe in Kokopelli
we don't believe in Ra
we don't believe in Radegast, Hermes, Lahar, Veles, Kus, Rod, Honos, Utu, Shamash, Hades, Aken, Bata, Osiris, Ha, Pluto, Apollo, Heka, Eeyeekalduk, Xochipilli, Himerus, Kamadeva, Siebog, Nezha, Gwydion, Bamapana, Huh, Meni, Kala, Fabulinus, Mimir, Yuanshi Tianzun, Jabru, Mot, Namtar, Wepwawet, Rudra, Saa, Aker, Petbe, Vidar, Kaus, Dhara, Zempat, Sumugan, Enki, Ash, Buxenus, Sucellus, Viridios, Shara, Laran, Ares, Huitzilopochtli, Dionysus, Thoth, Ganesha, Dagr, Lugus, Crom Cruach, Aah, Hilal, Mensis, Amm, Juthrbog, Tecciztecatl, Chandra, Alignak, Mummu, Enki, Omai, Qat, Rod, Bumba, Gukumatz, Cghene, Con-Tici Viracocha, or any of the other thousand gods that have been worshiped over the past millenia.

So we share 99% of our disbelief in gods. I just happen to believe in one less god than most others.