Wandering around US comics boards, I often see some very specific, and very irritating kind of behavior and one, certain argument repeated over, and over and over again.

Comics are entertainment.

I need to address this issue, because it may be better than ranting about it in multiple threads on multiple boards, because it pisses me off so much, that I cannot resist.

Don't get me wrong - I love entertaining comics as everybody else. I love Incredible Hercules, I love X-Factor. I like when comics made me laugh, I do.
But I also enjoy more serious tones. I don't have anything against darker themes. I love Alias, I love Dark Avengers. And even more I enjoy, when comics are addressing some serious real-life issues. Suicide Squad or Daredevil does that, and they're wonderful.

Comics can be entertaining, they should be entertaining.
But it shouldn't be their only purpose.

I know where this comes from. I know all about Dark Age. I know how everybody and their mother were trying to make "mature" comics and failed. I experienced that myself, Clone Saga pretty much killed Spider-Man in my country. But that's one thing. That's happens when people are trying to hard, just to show how mature they are. They're just posers. But there are people who are honest. Who really want to address some issues, who feels that some things needs to be said. And they do. They do it in comics. They choose comics as their medium. And what people do?

The bash them.

And scream "Grimdark!" everywhere.

Somebody is addressing politic in his comics. GRIMDARK! GRIMDARK! (followed by lawsuit from Tea Party) Somebody is doing an issue about pathological families? GRIMDARK! GRIMDARK! Somebody does a comics when hero has moral dilemma about killing villains or not, only to let them come back? How dare he! Let's scream GRIMDARK and make sure to convince every person who asks that main character is cold-blooded, amoral murderer and this comics is worthless, EXTREEEME piece of crap, written by stupid manchild*.

This is wrong. People starts to think, once again, that comics are genre and every single one of them should be "fun for whole family". Comics are not genre. They're medium. As any medium, they can show material from all genres, not only funny or kid-friendly ones. If writer needs to tells something, he has the same right like if he has been writing books or movie scripts. Many great writers worked very hard to make Americans realize that (In Europe and Japan people understands that very well, at last those who shows any interest in it), and yet some people still think that they're for kids and cannot contain anything serious. Maybe some of them feels insulted, that somebody thoug people in thinghts and crappy costumes are good way to get to reader and tell him something about racism. Well, excuse mee, princess, but it's true, they are.

I pointed it once - superheroes are supposed to give us hope. And they cannot do that, if you'll keep them away from real life problems. Their existence will be pointless, because nobody will be inspired to be better, to make the world a better place, to overcome his flaws, to not turn into conformist, to not tolerate crime and injustice by 20 issues of Spider-Man beating Green Goblin. Give me Spider-Man overcoming his flaws, really making world a better place, showing us how we can make the world better place. Not only I will enjoy this comics - I can also readi it with my kid and taught him/her something. Batman just caught a pedophile? Great, I can use this as an lead in to talk to my kid about not trusting strangers like kid kidnapped in that issue. And it's sometimes easier way to get to somebody, hake him think about important things he's trying to escape or ignore, to make him do something about it through work of fiction than some essay in newspaper he wouldn't even read.

I know that everybody has his right to opinion and hsi right to tell it. But this behavior scares me, it's like people are doing everything to come back to innocence of their childhood through comics and everything that reminds them they're not kids anymore must be burned at stake. I'm afraid that they will become more and more vocal. That they will start to make some sort of movement against serious comics. I'm afraid that at some point new Comic Code Authority will emerge from this. And we will left with nothing, but goofy fairy tales, that maybe can make somebody laugh, but I doubt they will make him a better person.

Comics can be entertaining. But they cannot be only this. If I want to talk about something serious through comics, it's my right.

* - Go on 4chan and ask /co/ about Invincible. You'll see what I mean.

Wow. This is obviously a subject very close to your heart!

I think these type of arguments are most common amongst readers of mainstream comics. The range is obviously quite narrow there and so both sides want to make sure that DC and Marvel don't ignore them!

The nice thing about Drunk Duck, I find, is that there is such a wide variety of comics here. There are comics which are purely for entertainment, and there are comics which try to put across a serious message. It's a broad church and there's something for everyone here!

When I was putting my comic together, tried to find a way to accommodate both tastes. I had a few serious themes I wanted it to explore but I also tried very hard to make sure it could also be read as a straightforward action/adventure story. Obviously I'd like people to notice all the other stuff I've put into it but, if someone wants to read it for entertainment only, then that's fine too!

One thing I don't understand: How is a comic that addresses issues not entertainment? When we watch a news program like CNN it still counts as entertainment. I'm only questioning your definitions, not your main argument.

You're right, people should have the right to address whatever issues they want in their comic. But they need to be frank and open about it. One thing I really hate is when it seems like an author is sneaking an agenda into a comic that was otherwise just plain entertainment.

I also tend to not enjoy seeing superheroes tackle actual, real-world problems. With heroes that can shoot lasers, control the weather, or travel through time, does it help us to have Batman track down and defeat Osama Bin Laden? Would reading about Aquaman stopping the gulf oil leak really change anything and inspire us at all? You look up from your comic book and the problem's still there, with real-world people struggling to solve them without heat vision and telepathy. But heck, I read comics for the exact reason you don't. Entertainment.

I don't know, maybe you didn't mean "current event" real-world problems.

Whether I personally would enjoy them or not, you're right, people should be allowed to make comics of whatever they want. And technically, they can.

I agree with Hawk in questioning your definition of "entertainment." Maybe you mean not all comics are made solely to amuse and entertain? And/or that not all comics should delight the general populous. But I do believe that all comics should entertain -- at least their target audience, and I would argue that there is no such thing as "pure entertainment" in terms of art or writing.

Comics are simply a form (or a medium, as you said) of expression. Any art form (and I count writing/prose as an art form as well) is meant to convey ideas, emotions, and often provoke thought. Sometimes, those emotions and thoughts are intended to be simply humor, but no good joke is without some theme or idea behind it. Different people are entertained in different ways. Some are entertained by shock comedy or by intense horror stories. Others are entertained by pictures of kittens in funny hats. Some find entertainment in thoughtful discussions of literature or politics. I don't think any of these genres of entertainment lack deeper meaning or fail to adress some kind of human truth/issue -- provided the reader really looks at why they find it entertaining. Shock comedy puts a spin on issues like racism or violence. Kittens reflect innocence, joy, and simplicity.

"Serious" comics might address their issues more apparently and readily to the reader, but no writer or artist can create a work without having their own ideals or thoughts seep into the work. Sometimes you have to look harder for it, and sometimes you don't want to look for it and just want to enjoy the work at its surface.

I think when someone only mentions comics as "just entertainment" it is often the writer/artist trying to deny deeper thought into their work or avoid difficult psychological discussion. Like when someone asks why a certain character in your story was killed or if something in your story is anti-something. Why so much violence? Does the inclusion of something suggest you're racist? Because character X is this religious/political affiliation, is that how the author feels? Etc. A writer/artist can shrug aside all of these questions by saying "It's just a comic. It's entertainment! Don't take it so seriously!"

Other people who would call a comic "just entertainment" would be someone trying to play down the significance of the deeper meaning of the piece or belittle the author. It's the same way people dismissed Uncle Tom's Cabin in the 1850's because it was just a work of fiction.

And there are people like me, who often just don't want to read in too deep. I appreciate symbolism, psychology, and deeper issues, but mostly, I want to immerse myself in a world of fiction. Many a good novel was ruined for me by having someone pick it apart into all its little symbolic pieces. Yes, I find that interesting, but sometimes, I just want to imagine Gulliver exploring all the strange lands. I'll enjoy the political satire angle at some other time. -- And when I do, I'll find that entertaining too but in a different way.

I think it is a fine line to tread. I think GOWs main gripe is that some people think that comics should be just entertainment and have no depth.

That to me is like saying films should all be mindless blockbusters.

Comics are a form of entertainment but they CAN and in some cases should do more.
Real issues add a touch of realism but as Hawk pointed out there are times when it is either not appropriate or doesn't work.
I think Captain America is a character that it must be hard to write, what are his politics? should he be a patriotic soldier regardless of orders and who is in office? Writers do best when they avoid commenting on real world politics with Captain america in my opinion.

However comics that deal with real world issues directly are fine, why should comics be any different from any other media?
One of hawks comments made me wonder though...

"One thing I really hate is when it seems like an author is sneaking an agenda into a comic that was otherwise just plain entertainment."

Now that is his or maybe her opinion and deserves respect but, surely regardless of the nature of a comic a certain amount of the authors views may come out, it isn't sneaking an agenda out. perhaps I read too much into that comment but Tolkien never intended for the LOTR books to be about industrialisation and the desruction of the natural world but so many people read that into the books he addressed it in a later edition.

Why do I read comics? for entertainment, nothing else. However, I do prefer comics to have some depth, as long as it isn't too heavy handed.

As for my comics... well they are for entertainment but I do have plans for certain elements of social commentry, just depends on how well I can handle them.

Yes. Comics are not always there to entertain you.

As a webcomic artist, it NEVER came across my mind that the comic I make is gonna exist for the sole purpose of entertaining people.

It originally started as a form of therapy for me. Back when I was a teenager up to my early 20s, I really had severe problems. I was struggling to cope with being rejected on all sides as well as I was on selexa (a type of anti-depressant that makes you extremely passive and gives you an extremely low sex drive for some reason. I swear you'd be SO PASSIVE that even if someone punches you in the face, you'd not even feel like hitting back.) just to keep down the internal rage and the suicidal tendencies I used to have.


Read Brood Knight if you want to know what I mean. Click my profile and I got 3 installments that kept going and going as I improved my art.

And when the depression, angst, social anxiety, suicidal tendencies subsided due to my spiritual awakening (it was a long process for me but thats another discussion), I just dropped Brood Knight just like that. It didnt matter if I had at least 100 people who favorited those comics.

And then I started on MAG-ISA --- a comic that came out of my desire to express my political and spiritual views, as well as do my part in contributing to the massive spiritual awakening and evolution of consciousness of the human race. I dunno but I just feel like I have a DUTY to fulfill. I'd leave it at that. I don't wanna get too metaphysical here.

Again. I never had "entertainment" at the back of my mind on doing MAG-ISA. When I was working on it, I had the feeling that my readership would drop at least by half because its first few chapters are all drama and very limited in the long-winded action scenes that I'm known for.

But I still persisted.

And to my surprise, MAG-ISA ended up more popular than Brood Knight. I've got 280 people who favorited my comic, an average of 5000 hits a day, got featured comic in July 2009, got nominated in the DD awards for "best political" and "best spiritual" comic, and routinely enters the top 10 of the drunkduck rankings.

Conversely though, MAG-ISA gets its fair share of hatemail coming from fake neocons and liberals, religious extremists, and others who simply don't like it.

I don't care. Its NOT made to entertain. Period.

And lastly, my advice to others is to connect to your subconscious mind. Do it by getting yourself into a trance state via meditation / self-hypnosis / etc.

Rely on intuition and your right brain instead of trying to rely too much on the left-brain function of patterning after other comics (Marvel, DC, Manga and anime, other webcomics, etc.).

The last time I've read a marvel / dc comic was when I was age 13. And the only anime I watch are Naruto and Bleach (not on a regular basis but only when I get to catch my friend of brother watching it).


This is just my 2-cents on the issue of comics being entertainment.

Now that is something more true of webcomics than mainstream comics.
I create for me, but I create something I want to share as entertainment, I guess we all do it for slightly different reasons.

More accurately comics aren't always just entertainment? Don't get me wrong I really appreciate comics that can tell very personal and relevant stories. In real life I'm always on about how comics can be used to tell any kind of story and how they're capable of incredible emotional depth-- which is why I feel like such a jerk for drawing the kind of comics that I do but I digress.
At the same time I'd say that there are comics that are entertaining and fun, maybe they don't bring up relevant social issues but I don't think they're somehow less valid for it. You can say the same of books, movies and TV shows as well. If a comic brings up real-world issues but handles it poorly I think it deserves to be criticized for attempting to seem edgy, if it can be handled it with some level of subtlety it can actually be really cool.

Ummm, my comic is meant to entertain.
Now I feel like a sell out!
But preachy messages and morals are no use if no one is interested in reading the thing!
Go team entertainment!

harkovast
Ummm, my comic is meant to entertain.
Now I feel like a sell out!
But preachy messages and morals are no use if no one is interested in reading the thing!
Go team entertainment!

There's nothing wrong with that. Every person has his/her own motivation in making comics.

When you make comics for entertainment, I'm sure you have something emotional (could be positive or negative) attached to the experience of entertaining people.

Perhaps a sense of satisfaction over the fact that you've kept a number of people entertained reading your stuff? Otherwise, it would be impossible for you to crank out page after page after page.

Anyway, I tried before to make a comic for the sole purpose of entertainment. It's called "KATROPA" (those whove been in drunkduck around 2003, could remember that). And I'm telling you it was a BIG FLOP that I stopped after the 3rd chapter :\

harkovast
Ummm, my comic is meant to entertain.
Now I feel like a sell out!
But preachy messages and morals are no use if no one is interested in reading the thing!
Go team entertainment!

what is a sell out? seriously dumb concept, like bands that allegedly sell out. Sure if they are anti establishment then yeah they might sell out but for a band to make it big and get called sell outs because they have done what they set out to? That is dumb. being successful doesn't make someone or thing a sell out. I am sure that Kyupol doesn't look at in those terms, success may be less relevent but not unwelcome.

I could dream of the sorts of figures kyupol gets, maybe someday, but the low figures I get are irrelevent, I make it because I want to create.

Okay, I meant that comics shouldn't be only entertainment. I tried to make title sounds more controversial to bring more people, bu totally forgot to mention it in a post. My bad.

Thanks for all already posted and upcoming opinions, it was very refreshing for my mind to see other's point of wiev.

DAJB
The nice thing about Drunk Duck, I find, is that there is such a wide variety of comics here. There are comics which are purely for entertainment, and there are comics which try to put across a serious message. It's a broad church and there's something for everyone here!

That's why I love Drunk Duck too.

Hawk
I also tend to not enjoy seeing superheroes tackle actual, real-world problems. With heroes that can shoot lasers, control the weather, or travel through time, does it help us to have Batman track down and defeat Osama Bin Laden? Would reading about Aquaman stopping the gulf oil leak really change anything and inspire us at all? You look up from your comic book and the problem's still there, with real-world people struggling to solve them without heat vision and telepathy. But heck, I read comics for the exact reason you don't. Entertainment.

I don't know, maybe you didn't mean "current event" real-world problems.

Well...First of all, „current event” have this problem, that emotions are often too strong, so it's more likely to write down something writer will later regret. And of course people are too much emotional and it's like walking flamebait. I would be very careful, while doing something like this right after said event. In fact, I would prefer to wait with it like year or something.
On the other hand, I can actually image issue about Aquaman dealing with oil leak – maybe not current one, but similar. If written well, and with subtle message, I can see how it would inspire people to do something about this problem. Because if Aquaman can, we can too. It would be hard to write and do it right, through. But I get your point, it may really be not always the best idea to do something like that.
And again, I like entertaining comics too. It's not like I'm against funny comics. I'm just against claims that they should be only ones being made.

Genejoke
surely regardless of the nature of a comic a certain amount of the authors views may come out, it isn't sneaking an agenda out.

Genejoke
Now that is something more true of webcomics than mainstream comics.
I create for me, but I create something I want to share as entertainment, I guess we all do it for slightly different reasons.

This and kyupol post illustrate another thing. I read what many writers said about writing, and even those who said they don't care about meaning of their stories, confirmed that writer always exposes a part of himself in his writing. This may be another problem – sometimes writer unintentionally exposes what was bugging him in a story, via metaphor or something, and people will say he's just trying to be “mature”.

Harkovast – No, you misunderstood me (dammit, I really should be more specific) – I don't say that because you do funny comics, you're “sell out” or anything. I love entertaining comics. I just don't like when people say they should be the only ones.

But preachy messages and morals are no use if no one is interested in reading the thing!

That's also a very good point. I'm pretty sure you can do both at the same time, but it's good to make reader care about characters and enjoy the story, before introducing serious elements, if they're not important plot point, of course.

Thank you all very much. I'll for sure will think about what you said, when I'll try to have more serious subplot in my comics.

I prefer superhero comics that are fun. Yes, it is possible to do a superhero comic with "real world" overtones. However, no matter how hard you try it's still a story about a guy who puts on a cape and flies. There is an ingrained silliness in there that you can't get rid of. It should be acknowledged and celebrated since that is one of the genre's strong points.

X-Factor and Incredible Hercules are two good comics that balance the equation quite well. They're fun to read and they make you care about the main characters by giving the reader relatable traits. I prefer my superhero comics like that.

I have no desire to read any superhero comics where they treat the subject matter like Tolstoy.

That's not to say that I don't think mature themes are to be rejected from comics entirely. Maus, Persepolis, Fax From Sarajevo, Sandman, Akira, Eightball, Berlin, Love & Rockets, Fun Home, Lone Wolf & Cub, A History of Violence, A Contract With God, Transmetropolitan, Blankets, and a plethora of other comics have proven that one can cover any kind of narrative ground with the comics medium.

As for superheroes, however, I would prefer that they keep themselves fun to read. I see no reason to bother with a superhero comic that isn't fun to read.

Here is the problem with including real world issues in your comic. If you don't know how to write about those real world issues, your comic can turn into a real mess. You can't just set out and decide your going to create the next MAUS, because you feel the world needs comics with more serious subject matter. It needs to come from someplace and can't just be forced.

I have no problem reading a comic that tries to tackle a serious subject. But f your not careful, you could end up pulling a Buckley with his horrible attempt at a miscarriage storyline.

If people were forced to choose between mindless entertainment or a serious subject handled poorly, they're probably gonna choose mindless.entertainment. Unless your comic turns out to ne incredibly funny unintentionally. But if that happens, you haven't really accomplished what you set out to do. :)

zaymac
But f your not careful, you could end up pulling a Buckley with his horrible attempt at a miscarriage storyline.

Wow, B^Uckley will always be the standard for horrible storyline choices in webcomics... he and Dominic Deegan's Terracciano with his Orc rape storyline...

I can understand the desire to try to include more serious or even darker elements into a story. That kind of things, when handled correctly, can bring a lot of deep and complexity to the story. Besides, write about certain themes is a challenge, and as authors, we should challenge ourselves from time to time.

The problem (sometimes) with adress serious issues in a comic is that 1) many authors use it as the chance to express their VERY IMPORTANT OPINIONS at expences of a rich storyline, complex characters and ACTUAL CONFLICT. Some just try to preach ther political/social/religious agenda.

And 2) Some authors have no talent or the knowledge to deal with certain themes without turn them into somethin laughable at best, and offensive at worst.

Trying to balance a message or a meaning with compeling storytelling is not an easy task, and it should imply TONS of research to truly understand the subject that its being dealing with.

For example, I've always found both stupid and baffling how many fanfic authors (specially new ones) use rape as a cheap and easy source of drama...

This is such an awesome discussion, so I guess I'll contribute by adding my two cents.
Comics since the get go have always thrown about local political ideals (Little Orphan Annie) and current social events (Golden Age Wonder Woman). My problem with this is unless you are aiming for it, giving yourself a current topic to work with and through in comics locks that comic into that time frame forever. That can be a good thing, but for superhero comics that endlessly continue without characters aging or dying it starts to make the plot more and more complicated so that your newbie readers never understand fully what’s going on sort of like someone just randomly grabbing an X-men issue.
So while I whole-heartedly believe that comics SHOULD do more in the world other than purely entertain, I do think that there is a time and place for comics to do that sort of thing. Case in point Green Lantern's gay bash issue, if anyone remembers Terry Berg Kyle Rayner's assistant and all around homosexual male there is an issue in which the character is severely beaten in order to show people how wrong hate crimes are. And while I agree with what they were trying to say I always kind of find myself wishing they'd maybe just done a one shot about actual hate crimes that didn't involve any sort of superhero influence. But sadly that sort of thing won't sell, Kyle freaking out that his friend was beaten to a bloody meat pulp and then going off on some stereotype homophobic villains? You get Eisner and Lambda awards for stuff like that.
Regardless though, comics should entertain but there should be an outlet even for superhero comics to talk about current social and political issues. In the 90's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles did an excellent job at this, often integrating gulf war issues and human rights concerns near the pages where Michelangelo eats 14 pizzas by himself. As a kid I really respected what they did and actually went into the library (we didn't have all these fancy web sources in 1992) to do more research about what the hell the Turtles were talking about. So if writers and artists can find the happy medium of social issue and entertainment we’ll get comics that are a snapshot of our era and also pretty fun to read. Usually though, you just get a lot of political bitching these days.

Air Raid Robertson
I prefer superhero comics that are fun. Yes, it is possible to do a superhero comic with "real world" overtones. However, no matter how hard you try it's still a story about a guy who puts on a cape and flies. There is an ingrained silliness in there that you can't get rid of. It should be acknowledged and celebrated since that is one of the genre's strong points.

...

I have no desire to read any superhero comics where they treat the subject matter like Tolstoy.

...

As for superheroes, however, I would prefer that they keep themselves fun to read. I see no reason to bother with a superhero comic that isn't fun to read.

I cannot agree with you any more than I do right now.

And I get the feeling that something was triggered in that Marvel thread. So I'm going to say this, you can address real-world issues in your comics and have your characters overcome hardships and obstacles to give the reader hope. But why does it have to be washed with blood and violence and dried with the fabric softener of drama and angst? You can have important messages in your comic without all the death and rape. There's enough of that in the real world. I wanna read a comic where the colours are saturated and the characters are happy (with hard-core action sequences is a plus). Instead, I get villains shoving the hero's girlfriends into refrigerators, or villains outright raping and then murdering a hero's wife simply to reinforce the fact that he's puuuurree eeevvvilllll. Or the explicit death of a six year old girl (not cool, DC, not cool).

It's like "I was just raped and my whole family murdered and now their heads are on stakes outside my house, let me tell you about the importance of getting an education." That's absolutely RIDICULOUS.

Did you ever watch those Saturday morning cartoons? While it was a cheesy Aesop at the end of the episode, they usually gave a helpful message to the kids who were watching it. Never was there dismemberment or the innocence of women and children taken in a dark alley way to get that message across.

Linkara put it very aptly in his review of the Blue Beetle, "...Blue Beetle was a good book and deserved more readers than it had. What really bugs me about the whole thing is that a light-hearted book like Blue Beetle died in today's market, but other books survived. 'Oh! We can't have a book about a teenager having fun fighting crime, but we CAN have a book that features a super hero who couldn't stop himself from having sex with anything and everything. We can have a book where Ironman shoves civil liberties up the asses of good people, but a book that had Paco fighting off aliens with a big stick? OH, that's not topical, or EXTREME enough.' It's like the 90's all over again..."

Serious stories can be serious and happy stories can be happy. But please, can't we have a message about gun control or not doing drugs without the severe depression that follows after reading it?

That is all.

Air raid and freegurt put it better than i could, but let me quote a joke from Drawn together, which is one of the most meaningless and mindless shows in history;

Spanky ham: "Oh my god! Is that corn-shaped rocket ship powered by cow shit??!"
South park girl: "yes! because don't you see? Ethanol is bullshit~!"
Spanky ham:"oh....i uh, i liked it better when it was a shit-powered rocket ship"

If you want to create a comic that serves a message, do so. But don't feel like you need to include one to have 'quality'. You don't need a relentlessly preachy reason for your shit-powered rocket ship.

Freegurt
And I get the feeling that something was triggered in that Marvel thread.

Nope, I was having this sort of arguments on few boards and decide, that instead of making off-topics it would be better to gather all my arguments in one thread here.

So I'm going to say this, you can address real-world issues in your comics and have your characters overcome hardships and obstacles to give the reader hope. But why does it have to be washed with blood and violence and dried with the fabric softener of drama and angst? You can have important messages in your comic without all the death and rape. There's enough of that in the real world. I wanna read a comic where the colours are saturated and the characters are happy (with hard-core action sequences is a plus). Instead, I get villains shoving the hero's girlfriends into refrigerators, or villains outright raping and then murdering a hero's wife simply to reinforce the fact that he's puuuurree eeevvvilllll. Or the explicit death of a six year old girl (not cool, DC, not cool).

It's like "I was just raped and my whole family murdered and now their heads are on stakes outside my house, let me tell you about the importance of getting an education." That's absolutely RIDICULOUS.

That's something different all-together. Some people just put things like this in comics in order to show how "deep" and "mature" they are or just play it for pure shock value. There are many posers who do this - Rob Liefeld, Mark Millar (Unfunnies. Just Unfunnies), Frank Miller, Eddie Berganza (Mark Waid once called him "Mister No Fun Allowed" and implied it his fault that Impulse stopped being funny), maybe Jeph Loeb (but I preffet to think he don't know what he's doing anymore). That's something I'm against myself - you cannot do serious story, if you do it for sake of "maturity" - it works only if writer really wants to tell some message and is honest about it. You have to be honest. It doesn't work, when it's done just for the sake of controversy, because then we get things like what you wrote or Lian's death, which I hate like nothing else.

Freegurt
Did you ever watch those Saturday morning cartoons? While it was a cheesy Aesop at the end of the episode, they usually gave a helpful message to the kids who were watching it. Never was there dismemberment or the innocence of women and children taken in a dark alley way to get that message across.

But now people fight to take away even that level of messages from comics - for some they shouldn't be telling anything and have no message at all. I noticed it also in new cartoons - there's too much focus on being funny and any message is made like if creators were hating it. I had this problem with Ying Yan Yoh, for example - almost every time an Aesop was coming, it seemed so forced I could just hear creators saying "Fuck you! We could put another joke here, but you had to have an aesop!".

Serious stories can be serious and happy stories can be happy. But please, can't we have a message about gun control or not doing drugs without the severe depression that follows after reading it?

Sure. As long as they will not try to remove message from it, saying that talking about guns is too dark. In fact, I would love to see more comics like Incredible Hercules, X-Factor or Guardians of the Galaxy, that can natuarlly shift from funny to serious and backwards, sometimes multiple times in one comics. New Booster Gold run may be one of those, which would please me very much.

Talk about preachiness?

Check out Jack Chick (Note: I only agree with 70-80% of what he says)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0064/0064_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1058/1058_01.asp

And more of his tracts:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

kyupol
Talk about preachiness?

Check out Jack Chick (Note: I only agree with 70-80% of what he says)

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0064/0064_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1058/1058_01.asp

And more of his tracts:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

Air Raid Robertson
I prefer superhero comics that are fun. Yes, it is possible to do a superhero comic with "real world" overtones. However, no matter how hard you try it's still a story about a guy who puts on a cape and flies. There is an ingrained silliness in there that you can't get rid of. It should be acknowledged and celebrated since that is one of the genre's strong points.



I have no desire to read any superhero comics where they treat the subject matter like Tolstoy.


As for superheroes, however, I would prefer that they keep themselves fun to read. I see no reason to bother with a superhero comic that isn't fun to read.

Superhero, or any comic that's obviously preaching, is a total turn off for me especially if the author has a political agenda.
However if a comic makes you think about what you read, that's not a bad thing either.
But to each his own I guess.

ZeroGee
Superhero, or any comic that's obviously preaching, is a total turn off for me especially if the author has a political agenda.
However if a comic makes you think about what you read, that's not a bad thing either.

I agree.

It's better if rather than presenting one opinion (presumably the author's) by vilifying the other school(s) of thought, the comic simply gives readers pause to consider how they would approach the situation. Like if the question of development vs. conservation comes up in a story, rather than taking the Captain Planet approach of turning the developers into disgusting drooling monsters with dollar signs in their eyes and the good guys must thwart them, the comic presents the issue with opposing sides, such as two "good" characters having different viewpoints on how the issue should be resolved.

Honestly, I have no patience with a story where the protagonist happens to support everything the writer supports and the villains are all symbolic of something the writer opposes. It results in a comic that not only doesn't entertain but is downright unpleasant -- even to many readers who actually agree with the author's positions.

I have a couple protagonists who are very much opposed to each other on most issues and neither of them have been imbued with *my* opinions. I also have some of the most unlikeable villains holding some views and ethics not so far from my own or of some of the protagonists. I think it makes for more enriching character development and reader discussion. -- Oh, and it encourages understanding and tolerance, which I guess might actually be my hidden agenda. ;)

And I like reading stories written that way. The only comics that should be loaded with propaganda, imo, are political comics nestled in the pages of religious pamphlets, political magazines, and similar publications you'll never catch me reading. :P

~~~~~~


(Admittedly, some of my Gelotology strips lean on what could be viewed as a political bias, but I write the strip primarily for an audience of science teachers and students. Plus, not all of the strips necessarily lean the same way. And some are meant with a degree of irony.)

zaymac
If people were forced to choose between mindless entertainment or a serious subject handled poorly, they're probably gonna choose mindless.entertainment.

I can't speak for everyone but I think a lot of us can agree with that.

Bff Satan, your image summed up my feelings on jack Chick perfectly!

The first few times that I readed those Chick Tracts, I thought that the guy was a parody of the fanatical nutjobs that the only thing that read besides the Bible is the Watchtower magazine... So I actually LIKED the guy... (never heard of his infamy until I got an Interent conection, few years later).

I still want to believe that the guy is the greatest troll in history.

I think that one can have a serious comic that touches on current issues but isn't loaded with propaganda.

But then, I think that serious comics that want to be thoughtful and current might be better off taking a more subtle route too. For example, doing something that mirrors an issue might be better than covering that issue specifically. It isn't as dated, per se, and people who don't necessarily agree on whatever opinion is put forth can view it in the context of a fiction, rather than a political statement. You can find this a lot in science fiction (though whether that's done subtly in a lot of cases is up for debate).

For me, the news is not 'entertainment', it's informative. But the very nature of a comic CAN be entertainment -- if you appreciate the art and the writing I'd consider that entertainment even if the purpose of the comic is more than to entertain. I think it's important to keep entertainment and information defined separately, but not to the extent of being mutually exclusive (although you've already said that's not what you were doing here).

I see this same problem with movies -- people want mindless entertainment. There's enough going on in the world. They don't want to think, they just want to relax. But I think sometimes that it may be worse in comics because comics are still debatable as a real artform, a real form of expression. You can do a lot with a comic -- it's not just entertaining, it can really be a vehicle for whatever a person chooses -- but people have an image of comics being light and fluffy, mental junkfood, kids' stuff, superheroes -- even though many superhero story lines are highly political or wrestle with a lot of serious issues. I'm not really sure why this persists.

More subtle propaganda. I just love that approach cuz its not so blatantly obvious like a Jack Chick tract or Captain Planet.

It all lies in the way you portray your characters and/or situations. You know, things like:
- portraying all men to be stupid bumbling idiots and women as superior.
- portraying all men as intelligent and capable while all women are goldigging shallow moron skanks.
- portraying all blacks as gangstas, whites as racists, etc.
- sci-fi environment that mirrors current events. I could make up a fictional fantasy universe with swords, elves, etc. where the society is ruled like a stinking police state.

You get the idea...

My comic has serious points to make about various things... But I don't think people really care about that when they read it, it's all too hidden for them under endless layers of boobs, bums, colourful artwork and a fragile storyline. :)
That doesn't really worry me though. I know it's there and I know it's not all just about the eye-candy, and that's all that matters.

As a reader, I don't care if a comic has any deeper message. I do like something that's nicely written though, and people that put messages in things are often decent writers. -Not people like Jack Chick of course, that sort of thing is literally stomach churiningly awful

If the writer is talented/skilled enough to pull off a serious comic that deals with dark/controversial subjects, all the power to them. However, I really don't think all comics need to be serious. I mean, if I've already had a bad day the last thing I want is a comic about rape or something. Naturally, it's tiresome to read only comics that have no depth at all.

It's all about balance, really. Although I'd still advise novice writers to avoid controversial issues in their stories. They're very touchy subjects for a reason, and fumbling them makes you look like a potentially insensitive idiot.