This is an interesting one to me...
I started off making Pinky TA in such a way that anything would go... Nudity, swearing, sex scenes, gross out, gore, wounds, violent death...

But then I decided I wanted a lower rating. So I got rid of all the obvious nudity I could find, toned the language from that point on, and made sure that any violence or gore wouldn't be there just for the sake of it but would make a sensible, serious moral point (to my mind). So that meant swearing would turn to "%$$#@@**%", violence and gore that was too much or sensational would be suggested and not shown, nudity would be kept within the limits (blocked bits, skimpy clothes), and gross-out or sex should be hinted at and not shown.

I found that even though that restricted where I could go and what I could do, I found I actually liked having those limitations to work around, they forced me to be more mature in my story telling and art, cleverer even.

I still find myself wanting to go against it though, and maybe I'll eventually make it truly "mature" rated work, but for now I'm happy to try and keep within lower, tighter boundaries, it's a helpful challenge of a sort.

Anyone else have experiences or stories of this kind?

I think of the ratings as descriptions not limitations. It's my philosophy to write your story and draw your pictures in whatever way you want and then choose the rating that applies to the product.

However, having your own personal boundaries and limits do provide direction and challenge. When I started my story, I already knew no one would be using obscenities and there would be no nudity or anything like that (partly because I was writing it to share with my dad), and violence would remain within certain limits. Sometimes, I've had to be creative with the language of "bad guys" who probably would be using stronger curses -- but then they just develop into different, albeit interesting, characters partly because of the way they speak.

Yup, I agree it is more interesting to have personal limits. Going all out in terms of sex and violence... distracts a reader from the story you want to tell. Now, if all you want to tell is the sex and violence, then that's a different matter.

I don't shy away from normal everyday swearing. Teen+ is there for a reason.

As for sex... I feel that like horror, it's best served as innuendos that lets the readers' imaginations run, rather than an outright pie-in-the-face, so to speak. Tickles rather than numbs one's senses.

Generally speaking, I agree that it's good to have limitations to work with. It can help focus what you're doing. I hate having to think in terms of the usual categories of what people find "offensive", though, which is why I slapped a "mature" label on Bulletproof. For the most part the comic is pretty tame, but the occasional headshot does happen and some of my characters are pottymouths. And I don't want to have to think about this stuff when I'm writing or drawing. I only do it where I feel it serves the story I'm telling anyway, it's not an end in itself, but when I do it, I feel it's necessary and I'd rather not have to worry about it.

It's really nice that there is a huge amount of freedom here, even if we choose not to use it. I've just started but I chose the mature rating just so I have options. I'm sure most of my choices will fall within a teen appropriate criteria but I believe that even one panel outside of that should qualify the rating of the whole series. Also, a constant stream of shock is just numbing. I'd rather save it for moments that will really be striking.

When i first started my comic i stuck it under the Adult rating just because i didn't want to feel restricted by anything. I wanted to be able to go all out balls to the wall as it were. I think my original intention with the comic was to make it a horror-porn, but the the story kept getting in the way. Eventually a friend convinced me to bump it down to Mature.
I've yet to feel restricted by the new rating. I think if worse came to worse i'd change it back to Adult, rather than censor myself, but i doubt i'll have to do that. I think it's much better let the rating fit around the comic, rather than try to restrict your creativity. You also have to be mindful of who your audience is. If you're writing a comic for Teens than the rating choice is obvious. My comic is for my friends who are all pretty demented and are not easily abashed by hanging organs of any kind.

Though i do agree sometimes more restrictions can force a person to be more creative with their narrative style.

Heh, when I first started mine, it was rated "E" since I didn't really see anything worth raising the rating a bit. Lately, I've been thinking of raising it to teen, but because my characters rarely-to-never swear and all nudity is obviously covered up by the fact that they're cute animal creatures, I just haven't felt the need to raise the rating.

Once I hit the second "season" (which wont be happening for several years), I'll probably have to raise the rating a to "T" instead, since what I have in mind will call for it.

As much as I'd like to have no limits on what I draw/write, I think it's a good thing to control what you put into your comic. Not everyone likes to read comics with excessive sex, gore, and violence. So I think restraining yourself by hinting at mature themes and censoring a comic can increase its hits because there's not a whole lot to turn away the faint of heart.

I think the way a comic looks visually can say a lot about what should go into it. Some things are more likely to appeal to younger audiences, like cartoonish characters, whereas more realistic characters will most likely appeal to a more mature audience.

Of course, that's just my opinion. Comics like Penny Arcade pretty much go against that. :) But that's mainly the reason I keep my comics restrained.

This is an interesting topic.

For my comic the rating doesn't really matter, since it's quite tame by most standards. But overall I think Drunk Duck has one of the best rating systems out there. It even thoughtfully includes an Adult rating for the real hard-core stuff.

There's nothing wrong with a comic going all out in terms of violence and sex, but showing restraint can often turn a niche comic into something a wider audience could enjoy without taking anything away from it. I can't recall who said it, but one comic artist once said that the hint of sex, and the idea of violence, were a lot more powerful than actually seeing the nudity and gore.

I take that to mean if you allude to something carefully, it can work better than mere exploitation ever could.

I have set limitations for myself while reading comics. I don't mind the violence, sex, nudity, bad language, etc, as long as it doesn't interfere with the story telling. And also, i'm not big on extremely violent images as well, But you know, thats what A rating is for :3 I read quite a few A rated comics where a good story and plot is present.

As for my comic, it has a little bit of everything in it, but it's quite tame considering :3 I try to limit what I put in to my comic, although it is aimed toward mature audiences, it holds an M rating. Because like me, i'm sure there are alot of viewers who don't want to be bombarded with a ton of sex, extreme violence, and extremely bad language :3 But as Usedbooks said, when you have villains in a story, they tend to curse more, so you kinda have to be creative with their speech, by throwing in a few more fancy words :3 Moderation in all things I guess ^^;

So that meant swearing would turn to "%$$#@@**%",

Blech, I cannot stand this. When I read dialog, I imitate the character's voice in my head. When I come across symbols, my brain sounds them out and it draws me out of your atmosphere immediately. If you don't want to use profanity, then make up something like "dagummit" or "sonuva..."

As far as putting limitations on my work it completely depends on what it is. I'm not a person who cares about "good taste" so if I have a chance to gross out the reader then I'll take it. Sometimes it's more effective to subtly hint to certain subjects but showing a scene in full glory is a great way to garner an emotional impact. I love it when cartoons do this. Our minds connect with abstract doodles more than realistic pictures so when we see a cartoony depicting of a realistic situation (like having sex or killing each other) then the impact is much greater than a realistic drawing of it.

I limit myself in most of the same areas. In fact I seem to edit and water down more and more. I actually have to remind myself that a character WOULD curse in a given situation.

Though I still try to limit the bad language a bit (as long as it doesn't hurt character) I to don't care much for symbols like #@&% in a more serious toned comic.
That stuff should be for comedic purposes only IMO

Violence I can get pretty crazy with as I love it, I have yet to have to make anything really bad yet, but I have some doozy scenes in the future.

I have not completely decided on nudity still. I want to stay away from full nudity as much as possible though, perhaps only using it for comedic purposes.

When I was younger I had all kinds of cussing, blood, and nudity in my comics. But for some reason now I have to talk myself into actually doing some of the stuff. I figure I have either matured more or good wholesome ideology has finally got to me =P

I certainly don't consider any of these things in terms of the "rating" they might warrant. I just see them as tools and techniques to be used at the appropriate time and in the appropriate way ("appropriate" being different from story to story).

Very few of my characters use strong language. That way, when a character does use it, it says something about that character. If I just have all my characters speaking in expletives all the time then, as a writer, I've lost a valuable tool. (Now, there's a lesson Garth Ennis would do well to learn!)

I use nudity and graphic violence in the same way. By using it very rarely, it (hopefully!) makes more of an impact when I do. If every blow results in someone's teeth flying across the room in a shower of blood, it ceases to carry any dramatic impact. If every gunshot results in a splurge of brain-matter splattering across the page, I have no way of showing how one death is more horrifying than another. (Oh, look - another lesson for Mr Ennis!)

Similarly, if every female character gets naked every time she appears in the story, nudity as a tool which could possibly be used to reveal something about one character's personality or a particular set of characters' relationships, is lost.

I don't believe in censorship (or even self-censorship in order to chase ratings). But I do believe that using any of these factors indiscriminately is just poor writing.

I don't mind tell you that Rival Angels was going to be fairly graphic, lots of nudity, along the lines of certain anime. Then I got to thinking that I wanted tell a story, a story that I felt strong about, and I felt for it to be taken seriously, I would have to present it in a different light.

I think it was a good choice.

I used to do an "anything goes" sort of comic similar to how Ozone did Pinky TA. It was fun to draw and write for but when I showed the comic to my friends they tended to not notice the jokes or characterizations, but rather the fact that I'd drawn boobs. It was OK that that's what readers in general seem to notice but it was frustrating when that was all they noticed. The situation also made me hesitant to show the comic off, so when I started Cricket's Creature I decided right off the bat to make it cleaner. There's no swearing really, no really violent death, and nobody gets naked. In a way I think having the "T" rating has helped the writing because I have to think of other ways to get the readers' attention and keep it other than having someone's head explode and have the heroine lose her top periodicaly.

patrickdevine
I have to think of other ways to get the readers' attention and keep it other than having someone's head explode and have the heroine lose her top periodicaly.

hehehhe ... i'm guilty of that one ...

but realy , i see a lot of this - "i was gunna make a balls out crazy as hell comic , but then ... wel .. uh .. yea ..." what's up whith that ? is that maturity ? censor yourself ? why ?
maybe the rubber bumpers will get you more readers , i dunno know about that , but it sure as hell isn't good for you ! taht's the whole problem with society !! society sucks cuz we keep going around pretending , pretending we are all normal . ..

hmm, well, I've got one comic where every character is naked all the time...one that the main character is a prostitute though all out sex is not shown but there is periodic nudity...then another that has no nudity or sex but...language, yep.

Well, I selected mature rating for my comic probably because most of comics I read on paper have mature rating. Sure, I reach for an occasional book with lower rating, some times eve All Ages (like Poly & the Pirates or Mouse Guard), but generally I stick to stuff for older readers. And that shows in my story too (although it's mostly on the later pages).

This means I can still go pretty far, but without pushing it too far. No full nudity sex scenes with extreme close ups planned for this one :)

There is (or will be rather) creative swearing, violence, a little bit of gore (but not too much) and perhaps some controversial topics.

Now, I do have a story I want to tell that WILL have to be labeled adult (due to the amounts of blasphemy, fetishes and massive apocalyptic death toll) but I'm still far from working on that one. There are certain elements that I'm not sure if I should keep in the story or not asthey might totally overpower the plot and gather too much focus... but on the other hand some of them are crucial to the ending.

Personally I see it like this... if the story calls for a shocking scene (to better explain why a character is on a murder-crazy vengeance trip OR traumatized and hiding under the sofa) or strong language (for example it features soldiers, ever seen a soldier that doesn't swear? haha) then it should be in the story. Period.

Like Usedbooks said, I see the rating as more of a description than a restriction.

I could probably bump the rating down to Teen, actually. But, you know, Mature covers all the bases or something. There's a fair amount of searing when there needs to be or I have no punchline.

My comic features absolutely tons and tons of nudity. George can rarely be seen wearing a single stitch of clothing. :D

Oh, wait. George is a dragon :D


Anyway, back on topic.I find that there are few reasons why a comic should be above teen rating. I have yet to see any amount of sex, swearing or violence that could not have been left out or hinted at. In most cases the "watering down" as it is so often called only serves to make the story stronger. Yep. That's right. Most of the nudity/swearing, as has been mentioned, actually takes away from the story. Contrant streams of profanity don't tell us much about the characters. Nudity rarely rises above fan service or distraction. Violence I don't mind so much because lets face it, a violent drawing is still pretty tame. I don't like blood everywhere though.

Its like a horror movie. The best ones are the ones that DON'T show the monster or the blood. It is what is not shown that impresses the audience.

I don't understand why the ratings are called "mature" or "adult" instead of 'sleazy' and 'vile'. An addition of this material does not making it a comic that an adult would enjoy. An adult can enjoy any range of things. I am an adult male who writes a comic listed as 'E'. Why? Is it because I want to have little kids reading my comic? no. I want everyone to enjoy it. I want to enjoy it.

In my opinion 'mature' and 'adult' are misnomers. The state of mind that truly thrives on what those two categories offer is adolescent. Generally as one gets bast their teens they're taste mature (not mature as explicit) and they focus less on the visceral. (Don't get me started on swearing in literature, as an author, I have a very stringent view when it comes to those useless words.)

I think that 'limiting' yourself not only brings in a wider audience, but helps improve the overall quality of the story you are trying to tell.

everytime there's an objectionable scene in my comic, there is a NSFW warning right away. Because I dont want the people who read my comic to get in trouble at work or school.

But that barely happens. As much as possible I try not to put that stuff in my comics unless it is necessary. I put only the necessary parts.

For instance, if we have a scene about satanic pedophilic rituals, I think the necessary part could be a shot showing a child being strapped down in some torture table WITH CLOTHES ON. Its unnecessary to show the whole kid naked and getting molested by these sick bastards. :(

Loud_G
I don't understand why the ratings are called "mature" or "adult" instead of 'sleazy' and 'vile'. An addition of this material does not making it a comic that an adult would enjoy. An adult can enjoy any range of things. I am an adult male who writes a comic listed as 'E'. Why? Is it because I want to have little kids reading my comic? no. I want everyone to enjoy it. I want to enjoy it.

In my opinion 'mature' and 'adult' are misnomers. The state of mind that truly thrives on what those two categories offer is adolescent. Generally as one gets bast their teens they're taste mature (not mature as explicit) and they focus less on the visceral. (Don't get me started on swearing in literature, as an author, I have a very stringent view when it comes to those useless words.)

Err, everyone's different you know. What about gritty comics like Sin City? Would that improve if you cleaned it up?

Also, swearing can provide realism. If you're portraying the real world, well, people swear. Sometimes obvious censorship is just annoying.

Also, what you got against sex and swearing anyway? XD Sex is an awesome and essential part of life, and swear words are only as vile as you've been brought up to believe... in the end they're just words.

Loud_G
Don't get me started on swearing in literature, as an author, I have a very stringent view when it comes to those useless words.

It depends on context of course. In writing, you have characters, and some characters will make generous use of "useless words." The author for a character who swears up a storm is not necessarily a "potty mouth" any more than someone writing about serial killers must be a murderer himself.

As an example, I can say that there are many vulgar words I avoid in my writing (and therefore have no characters who use them) -- mostly anything that isn't said on cable s*, f*, a-hole, etc. I also never had a character say b*, which is in the realm of T+, primetime words... BUT particularly offensive to me, and it would say something about the characters who use it. Certain people use that word, and it's just not part of lingo of the characters I present. However, recently, I wrote a story about an abusive husband. Guess what? It *is* part of his vocabulary. If he didn't use b* (at least...) to refer to his wife and other women, he wouldn't have been the character I wanted to portray.

If it's out of your comfort zone as a writer (or reader), then simply don't write about those types of characters. If you censor them, you change your story and the character -- which is not necessarily bad, but it is something to think about. Real life is made of a lot of people that are offensive and vulgar. A writer who is neither of those things should not feel that they can't write about them.

Sex and violence are different altogether. Camera angles can allow for inclusion of those things in a story -- often in an even more effective and moving way -- without making them graphic, gorey, or pornographic. A character can be a violent psycho without actually showing the gore, but a character can't be realistically foul-mouthed if you have him say "You little dickens!" "Oh sugar!" or (without becoming goofy) "#@%%*!^$#!"

i'm pretty satisfied with putrid's rating. i'm able to tell the story i want, how i want, and there was nothing realy i can think of that i wanted to put in it that'd be horrible enough to bump it up to an adult rating, there's only one page i can think of towards the end that might merit it, but i can tone it down a little but, just enough where it's gonna be grodey as all hell, but i'll still get my point across pretty well.hahaha!

I think the rating descriptions for DD are pretty tame, actually. I associate them as follows (which isn't how their described):

E = G or PG rating
T = PG-13
M = R (which means nudity, sex, and about as much violence as you want)
A = XXX (usually for sex and penetration / pornographic material, but you could also throw in pages and pages of limbs flying off if you wanted to).

However, the descriptions make them sounds much more tame. I sometimes get nervous for throwing an f-bomb into a teen rated comic, simply because the description for what a T book is on here is lower than what I think I can get away with. But then I think to myself T = PG-13, and they can get away with saying the f-word 2-3 times per movie...why can I per story arc?

As for M, I think so long as there's no sexual penetration (or erections) you can basically qualify for an R-rating. I go for a strong R for Temple, which has a lot of blood and limbs, but I don't really consider it violent. Buckets of blood aren't really gorey to me. Maybe I'm just a little desensitized, though....

kyupol
...I think the necessary part could be a shot showing a child being strapped down in some torture table WITH CLOTHES ON. Its unnecessary to show the whole kid naked...

>.> The first chapter of Kenyagi has my main character at the tender age of 12 being strapped to a table. Originally, when I was writing this as a short story, she was nude but I had to change that once I decided to make it a comic. I've toned down both Kenyagi and Of Snakes and Apples once I changed them from written stories to comics. There was quiet a bit of nudity in Kenyagi as a story, and lots of sexual imagery. OSAA, I've toned down the sexuality a lot...there will be hinting but no full out sex.

It's funny that I didn't feel the need to censor this when I writing these stories. But in this visual medium I felt that it needed to be changed/censored...

trevoramueller
I think the rating descriptions for DD are pretty tame, actually. I associate them as follows (which isn't how their described):

E = G or PG rating
T = PG-13
M = R (which means nudity, sex, and about as much violence as you want)
A = XXX (usually for sex and penetration / pornographic material, but you could also throw in pages and pages of limbs flying off if you wanted to).

However, the descriptions make them sounds much more tame. I sometimes get nervous for throwing an f-bomb into a teen rated comic, simply because the description for what a T book is on here is lower than what I think I can get away with. But then I think to myself T = PG-13, and they can get away with saying the f-word 2-3 times per movie...why can I per story arc?

As for M, I think so long as there's no sexual penetration (or erections) you can basically qualify for an R-rating. I go for a strong R for Temple, which has a lot of blood and limbs, but I don't really consider it violent. Buckets of blood aren't really gorey to me. Maybe I'm just a little desensitized, though....

the lad makes a fine point. that's pretty much what i think of it as too.

hmm..clear somethin up for me. i see a lot of you saying that you slim your comic to a teen or less comic so people take it more seriously....how exactly do you figure that people will take it more seriously?what do you mean by that?

EDIT:actualy i take this back, went back and read through all the comments again and there realy wasnt anything but one that i can remember that said that. i apologize.

I only changed mine so as not to fit in the adult rating. Both of the ones I mentioned are rated mature. I think its more to open it to more of an audience. I don't think an adult/mature comic would be taken less seriously (unless the author wanted people to ^^).

I do have one comic that is rated teen for some language and violence and another rated everyone.

Jimeth
Err, everyone's different you know. What about gritty comics like Sin City? Would that improve if you cleaned it up?

Probably, yes. Use of those elements does not create a gritty feel. Use of artistic and literary talent do.

Jimeth
Also, swearing can provide realism. If you're portraying the real world, well, people swear. Sometimes obvious censorship is just annoying.

Also, what you got against sex and swearing anyway? XD Sex is an awesome and essential part of life, and swear words are only as vile as you've been brought up to believe... in the end they're just words.

Ok, people poop everyday too, but I don't want to see THAT either. :D

My beef with swear words is not the vileness, its mainly the lack of creativity and poor grammar. They are catch all terms and are used in any and all parts of speach just because. I don't think swear words are adult communication, I think they are juvenile communication that adults sadly have not stopped using.