smkinoshita
@I Am The 1337 Master: Shonen. Thanks. ;)

No problem.

The only reason I know of this is 'cause I read Naruto up until shippuden.


Sad sad life I had.

smkinoshita
Stuff I think my comic might be guilty of:

Don't take this stuff personally :)

Btw, THIS is what I meant by an overly airbrushed, gradient colour, sharp black ink look:
http://www.drunkduck.com/Witchblade/index.php

-Not Witchblade particularly, just that look that's popular in mainstream American comics. It's really a crappy way of transitioning their traditional approach to computer art.

-and the fact that most of the characters all look the same apart from their hairstyles.

...I don't care what comic it is- when the only way to tell characters apart is by something superficial like hairstyles, that's pretty confusing and overall it's pretty crap. That's not just an art problem, that can be a writing problem too.

ozoneocean

smkinoshita
Stuff I think my comic might be guilty of:

Don't take this stuff personally :)

Yeah, seriously, there's no way anybody can make a comic that is universally loved. I, for example, am a huge Scott Pilgrim fan, I simply can't imagine why anybody would hate that comic, and it does have a pretty wide fanbase, but still there are people who can't stand it or who are just plain indifferent. Not everybody likes everything.

There are some things that will almost universally improve a comic, like artistic consistency, tight plotting, clear panel contents and good pacing, but in the end, a huge amount of stuff is highly subjective.
A few people here have said that manga style comics are a turn off for them. I can understand where they're coming from, since I really strongly dislike grotesque caricature style art, I don't think it's bad objectively, but it really doesn't float my boat. Just because some people aren't keen on asian-influenced comic artwork though, doesn't mean I'm going to change my drawing style, or try to argue them into reading my comic. I draw as I do because I've loved manga style art from a very young age, I feel that it's beautiful, clean, dynamic and gets emotion across very efficiently. Some people agree and enjoy it, and naturally some people don't like the level of stylisation and simplification, but there's no point losing sleep over people's subjective tastes when there are so many people in the world who either like manga or who don't really mind either way so long as the comic is interesting in other respects so the style isn't an issue for them.

@OzoneOcean, @Darth Mongoose: I'm not taking it personally, I'm taking it constructively. ;) If there are things I do that I'm not partial to and could change to improve my audience, I will.

Somethings I know I should do but just have never made time for -- like backgrounds. I do very rudimentary backgrounds. I'd like to mimic classic Loony Tunes and Power Puff Girls' approach (very simple backgrounds) but it doesn't always look right and I've come to realize it's due to my character designs. They're just a little too complex to use that style without making it feel "off".

Other things might put people off but I won't change. Skull Girl's fanservice costumes for example are done on purpose so I can have her do the occasional gag about how bad the costume is. It's funnier for those who know the character because she takes "you look like a whore" as a compliment despite the fact that she's a very much a "good girl".

I figure anything that I didn't do on purpose and I don't think is intrinsic to the style is open for adjustment.

@OzoneOcean -- Although on that note, I don't think I'll be keeping the airbrush shading after all. Just something seems... off about it. It could be my lack of skill, or it might not be very appropriate to the style. The only character that it seems to really work for is Cursive, an then only around her eyes.

Darth Mongoose

ozoneocean

smkinoshita
Stuff I think my comic might be guilty of:

Don't take this stuff personally :)

Yeah, seriously, there's no way anybody can make a comic that is universally loved. I, for example, am a huge Scott Pilgrim fan, I simply can't imagine why anybody would hate that comic, and it does have a pretty wide fanbase, but still there are people who can't stand it or who are just plain indifferent. Not everybody likes everything.

There are some things that will almost universally improve a comic, like artistic consistency, tight plotting, clear panel contents and good pacing, but in the end, a huge amount of stuff is highly subjective.
A few people here have said that manga style comics are a turn off for them. I can understand where they're coming from, since I really strongly dislike grotesque caricature style art, I don't think it's bad objectively, but it really doesn't float my boat. Just because some people aren't keen on asian-influenced comic artwork though, doesn't mean I'm going to change my drawing style, or try to argue them into reading my comic. I draw as I do because I've loved manga style art from a very young age, I feel that it's beautiful, clean, dynamic and gets emotion across very efficiently. Some people agree and enjoy it, and naturally some people don't like the level of stylisation and simplification, but there's no point losing sleep over people's subjective tastes when there are so many people in the world who either like manga or who don't really mind either way so long as the comic is interesting in other respects so the style isn't an issue for them.

I guess it depends on what you do with that style too. it's one thing to be influenced by a style it's another to try and be excatly like some hot manga or any other artist for that matter.

Anything that makes the comic hard to read- horizontal scrolling, illegible hand lettering, confusing panel layouts...
'Read Right to Left' annoys me beyond all measure (unless the artist is actually Japanese, then I don't mind) In a related note, placing your story in Japan for no reason really bugs me.
Apart from that, I've got all the same problems with sprite comics as everyone else.
None of my complaints are all that original...

I simply cannot follow the whole right to left thing either. Just too confusing, but I do like Anime/Manga comics, both real and those that mimic that style, but it has to be not only well drawn, but well written to get my interest and keep it. I usually don't read a lot of sprite comics either, for all of the reasons already listed, and most that I have taken a look at I've only read a couple of pages and quit. However, I do like and follow "Paper Cuts" on here because I do find the story and humor to be good enough to keep reading. That is my exception to the rule.

One thing that really bugs me (not sure if it's already been mentioned) is when the preview thumbnail looks absolutely nothing like the comic. That just gets things started off on the wrong foot and I usually won't bother reading a comic if I get suckered into clicking on it.

Also, I know it's been said a few times already, but manga is a big hang-up for me. I recently saw a comic being promoted here in the forums that sounded like it had a really cool premise, but then I clicked on the link it turned out to be a manga so I didn't even bother reading it. Sorry, but to me when that right away tells me I'm dealing with someone who isn't very creative.

Um, exceptions... I think sprite comics are lazy too, but I thought Misadventures of Classic Mega Man was a pretty good parody. Even in that case though, I'd like it so much more if it weren't a sprite comic.

Tantz Aerine
I won't go looking for porn and will put it down if it turns out like this, as they are rather boring and repetitive plotwise. Sorry, no exceptions there :p

I may have to play devil's advocate here, since there are one or two hentai mangas which are exceptionally well-written :D In fact, many of them are superior to many "regular" manga. On average, porn will be worse in the plot-department though, but I don't think porn-afficionados care.

Personally, I'm not afraid of putting Isutoshi's Slut Girl on my shelf. I'm ready to take the heat for it :D

I won't read porn comics for porn, I mean if I want porn I will get it with real people or artistic stills if I want to admire beautiful women.

However I do read read death porn...

Genejoke
I won't read porn comics for porn, I mean if I want porn I will get it with real people or artistic stills if I want to admire beautiful women.

As for the "real people" part: The context is pretty important, I think. Porn with real people tends to have ridiculous, completely unerotic context. It's not just about looks, and it's certainly not just about realism (for me, at least -- maybe I'm odd that way.) As for "artistic skills": put a lot of these together, and you can make a comic ^_^ (Heck, I wish I had the grasp of anatomy that some porn artists have!)

But yeah, I wasn't talking about porn as a masturbation incentive, I was actually talking about plot :D

Also, I read GRIND. Or let's substitute "read" for "take in the utter genius of".

I don't like dead comics.

Comics which probably had a strong beginning, seem to fluctuate well and carry it on smoothly on the third gear like the first stage of 'Outrun', before ending abruptly. Either the author forgot, got lazy, got busy, or heck... simply abandoned it for his own and the internet's sake. It's a shame, because if it was given a proper finale, I figure they deserve a better close than 'Will Return in 2005!' and nothing happens.

Anime comics I'm alright with. No complaints here, though I think they take up the majority of what's presented. Sprite comics - I don't hate them, but I don't like them. If they were are all custom-made from the ground up (okay, maybe that's too difficult) or something to separate it from being another Sonic fan-character, card-battling, pocket monster, Digital monster, random l33t-sp34k on every panel, I think it would look nice. The less Photoshop make-up or whatever to enhance it also turns me off.

I don't mind MSPaint comics. It shouldn't be too much different than other, better tools. Stick figure comics... eh, depends on what it's point is. Stylized comics done in the vein of the present media like superhero comics, I don't mind that. It's a tired genre, but there's a lot of talent people out there can pool in if they want to.

Here's one---

Comics in which the banner or the page itself is ridiculously huge.

Honestly. o_o Like, wall-paper sized. I gotta find that one I saw last night which had a perfect example of this...

I do like story comics. 'Inspired by', 'Based on', 'Loosely based on', and maybe the occasional 'slice of life' comic. Fantasy comics that take the reader out there, adventure serials, detective formats, easy-to-red, something recognizable, or that I'm familiar with. Horror-stuff, zombies, monsters, tributes, that sort of thing. I dunno. Homages?

Gag-a-day strips I can read on a Sunday newspaper with Blondie and Beetle Bailey. Gamer strips I'll let VGCats handle. I can't really get into gaming comics because it becomes a "you kinda have to play the game or read the game news scene to get it."

Not trying to start an argument or anything here, but why do people hate right to left so much?

There's nothing wrong with an actual Japanese comic, which was originally written in Japanese for a Japanese-speaking audience, being done right-to-left. It's more tedious to read for us Westerners who grew up reading horizontally left-to-right, but we can put up with it; it's part of appreciating another culture.

But when some American weaboo does his manga comic right to left, just to wallow in his own weabooness, that's a different matter. It's pretentious and unnecessary. You're writing in English, for an English-speaking audience. There is absolutely no reason to reverse-engineer your comic to make it look like something it isn't. It doesn't make your wannabe Japanese comic any more authentic, but it does create an unnecessary barrier for people who are trying to read it.

Meh, right to left just takes about 5 minutes to get used to really.
Something you don't like at first, but can easily get around.

ozoneocean
Meh, right to left just takes about 5 minutes to get used to really.
Something you don't like at first, but can easily get around.

It's like driving a right hand drive car in the USA. Supposedly easy to get used to but very disorienting and is it really worth it to drive that exotic car? Especially since it has a horribly mis-engineered mess for a drive train.

Intellectually it takes five minutes for someone to get accustomed to it but it isn't that easy at all and only worth doing if you absolutly have to like when we Yanks motor around the British Isles.

"keep right except to pass" and "Stay left except to overtake"...

Now maybe if it was for an original purpose like the Mother Goose and Grimm comic strip play on anime and enemy. A cartoon in Arabic like a manga would be read right to left.

I dislike right to left but don't hate it, the problem is I find a lot of manga wannabe webcomics are poorly laid out as well as right to left and that is just impossible to follow. I find some even seem to change flow mid page, it will begin right to left and go crazy from there being right to left to centre to left then up then right the back down to the bottom corner then back up somewhere.
It's probably comics lie that which put people off RTL, even though bad layouts are bad layouts regardless of the direction of the traffic.

bravo1102
It's like driving a right hand drive car in the USA. Supposedly easy to get used to but very disorienting and is it really worth it to drive that exotic car? Especially since it has a horribly mis-engineered mess for a drive train.

Intellectually it takes five minutes for someone to get accustomed to it but it isn't that easy at all and only worth doing if you absolutly have to like when we Yanks motor around the British Isles.

It's not that difficult. It's probably good for your brain to make the change too! mental exercise! :)

Like Genejoke says, it's bad layouts that are more of the problem. Right to left or left to right, it doesn't matter, as long as it's consistent!

You could even have the pages flowing right to left and UP the page instead of down, so long as they stayed with that system.

It takes more effort to complain about it and explain why it's bad than it does to acclimatise to it. ^_^

bravo1102
It's like driving a right hand drive car in the USA. Supposedly easy to get used to but very disorienting and is it really worth it to drive that exotic car? Especially since it has a horribly mis-engineered mess for a drive train.

Ok, i'll admit that I can't drive, but how can you compare reading right to left to driving on the side of the road your not accustomed to?!

Hold on. I said I'm not trying to start any arguments so I'm not going to argue.

ozoneocean
Meh, right to left just takes about 5 minutes to get used to really.

Gotta agree with ozoneocean there, though. You should try reading a right to left comic and see how "disorienting" it is.

DarkGesen
Ok, i'll admit that I can't drive, but how can you compare reading right to left to driving on the side of the road your not accustomed to?!

As someone who had to learn to drive on the opposite side, that's actually a pretty good comparison. At some point driving, like reading, develops an instinctual set of places your eyes want to look and things you want to pay attention to. Changing either one around can be disorienting because you have to remember to do it the other way rather than the way your instincts guide you. (Granted, driving is a lot higher-stakes.) If you look at a right-to-left page, your eyes are always going to look at the left side first. Plot stuff can be ruined that way, but mostly it's just an additional mental step making a small barrier to ease of reading.

If you're reading a 'reads right to left' comic in batches at one go, then yes, it's very easy to get used to the new reading direction. However if you're reading it page-by-page as it updates, it's mixed in with a bunch of other comics which have normal left-to-right layouts. Each time you go to read a page from that comic you have to remember it's the other way around.

I don't think anyone I've talked to truly has a serious issue with r-to-l reading, it's just seen as artificial and an annoyance.

I don't like moe very much. Exceptions being Elfen Lied and Black God.

I ESPECIALLY DISLIKE the western "How to Draw Manga" look. It makes my eyes vomit. Looked at those books when I started out and I couldn't get past the first page without frantically trying to shove it towards the back of the display.

Glad I'm self taught.

Ignore the "Graphic Sha" How to Draw Manga books on my shelves. I used those for references and lend them out to people when they're trying to learn. It's all I can do to kill the influence of the aforementioned nightmare-inducing bile.


My sister got this book.
AVOID IT LIKE THE FUCKING PLAGUE!!!

DarkGesen
Gotta agree with ozoneocean there, though. You should try reading a right to left comic and see how "disorienting" it is.

Does anyone else here get disoriented trying to follow THIS?

If one didn't already know this was a right-to-left comic, they would never figure out what's going on with this page, or be able to follow the conversation on the following page, for that matter.

It's not something that can't be overcome, but it's unnecessary and cumbersome. Any writing teacher will tell you the last thing you want to do is add something to your writing which makes it more tedious to read unless it is absolutely essential. In comics, that would be things like difficult-to-read fonts, hard-to-follow word balloons, and yes, also novel panel sequencing.

I'm honestly surprised you even feel the need to ask why people have a problem with you doing a comic right to left. The real question is why would you, the author, choose to do it that way to begin with? In what way does it benefit your comic?

The thing with right to left is the fact that it is laid out in a similar way to unflipped translated manga.

And I gotta admit. It somehow becomes a default comic reading mode for some people.
Myself included. Instead of just putting warnings at the last page of a tankobon telling people they're reading it the wrong way, they should have them on the last page of a graphic novel too so people remember. Lol.

Mahlaste and Nervewire were also going to be right to left. As is evident by the first two "tester" pages for Mahlaste that I've already got up here. I wanted them to look translated complete with advertisements in different languages I've been working on alongside it. But then I remembered how confusing it would be. So I've left it out now.

The thing I noticed the most with the Gesen pages provided was how unbalanced they were. If you're doing something right to left then the focus of the panel should be more on the right rather than the left. Left to right should have more focus on the left so that you notice the more important things first and gives an overall flow to the page.

A lot of artists forget to switch the panel focus alongside the panel layout. That's what causes a lot of confusion for readers. Even those that are used to manga layouts. Because they don't know where to direct their eyes with every new panel.

Does anyone else here get disoriented trying to follow THIS?
Yeah, those pages didn't come out very well at all. But now I know how disorienting it is, I now know what needs to be done. Or rather re-done.

Faliat
Instead of just putting warnings at the last page of a tankobon telling people they're reading it the wrong way, they should have them on the last page of a graphic novel too so people remember. Lol.

You're right about that, for the first 10 or so pages I did have "Read Right to Left" in the authors comments, but after a while, I got sick of doing it. Instead, I'll out the reminders in the title Image so there's no escape and no excuse.

Faliat
If you're doing something right to left then the focus of the panel should be more on the right rather than the left. Left to right should have more focus on the left so that you notice the more important things first and gives an overall flow to the page.

That's true, but isn't that really only applying to the first panel?

Faliat
I don't like moe very much. Exceptions being Elfen Lied and Black God.

I ESPECIALLY DISLIKE the western "How to Draw Manga" look. It makes my eyes vomit. Looked at those books when I started out and I couldn't get past the first page without frantically trying to shove it towards the back of the display.

Glad I'm self taught.

Ignore the "Graphic Sha" How to Draw Manga books on my shelves. I used those for references and lend them out to people when they're trying to learn. It's all I can do to kill the influence of the aforementioned nightmare-inducing bile.


My sister got this book.
AVOID IT LIKE THE FUCKING PLAGUE!!!

Heh, yeah the examples are often terrible. Although out of a similar book I did pick up some useful stuff for when I started out, but I already knew how to draw I just picked it up cheap for the help with the digital stuff. Interestingly the advice was useful but I have found far better and less complex ways since.

Oh my god, I have a book just like that. The cover is different, but virtually every character at the top of that cover is on every chapter. Man, please tell me they didn't just Photoshop several pre-existing books and re-name it under a different title.

I don't even use said book (or similar one). I wanna get rid of it. x__X;

DarkGesen

Faliat
If you're doing something right to left then the focus of the panel should be more on the right rather than the left. Left to right should have more focus on the left so that you notice the more important things first and gives an overall flow to the page.

That's true, but isn't that really only applying to the first panel?

No, the panels should not be seen as singular images and more like parts of a bigger one.

itsjustaar
Oh my god, I have a book just like that. The cover is different, but virtually every character at the top of that cover is on every chapter. Man, please tell me they didn't just Photoshop several pre-existing books and re-name it under a different title.

Books usually have several different cover styles. You probably have the same one, just with a different cover.

No doubt more people will own it. It's got a 5 star rating on Amazon!

Bad comics.

God of War
Bad comics.

What he said.

Seriously though,the art has to grab my attention first.If the story is of any interest to me after then I will keep following or "fav" it.I draw,so that is the way my mind works.I've always been a big fan of the super hero genre,not much else besides the once in awhile Sci-fi or fantasy story,but my first sentence applies here also.

I just don't see the appeal to all the Bakugan,sprite,fanservice(I might peak if the art is good,but still,a lot of it border lines under age no-no's!) and horror.Pointless crap and not much input into the characters,imo.