ozoneocean
Besides, even if they do ever get it to work perfectly, there's still the problem dramatically reducing the gene pool.

Incorrect. What, they're going to kill off every non-clone cow and replace them with clones?

ozoneocean
We've seen what happens when this has been done with crops, endangered species etc.

Yeah... cause all our crops are gone? Don't know where you're going with that. Besides, genetic manipulation has increased yields dramatically.

And endangered species? What the hell does that have to do with anything? If anything, that bolsters the case for genetic manipulation. An endangered species is genetically inferior to continue to perpetuate itself.

ozoneocean
The susceptibility to disease increases exponentially with the prospect of the entire species being eradicated in short order (or the diseases being transferred onto humans).

Susceptibility to disease goes up with the threat of being killed? Where'd you get that one?

ozoneocean
Then there's the risk of the genetic errors made by the cloning process causing further problems besides all the ones seen so far, and these causing problems in humans the way CJD did. Ah, but these are concerns for people that are a little more aware of the cases. ;)

Doesn't that go against your premise of "even if they do ever get it to work perfectly"?


Seriously, man, for all your pompous know-it-all posting, you don't seem to be as smart as you think you are.

Settle down TnT, no one's your enemy here :)
I think I see the trouble here, you don't actually know very much about cloning or farming. That's ok, I know more, but not all that much ^_^

I could go on about selective breeding and explain further about the things you're confused over, but I can't be buggered. I don't want to fight with you.

if i was convinced that the cloning process worked and the meat was safe... there would be no issue, really.

Though I admit, I am also suspicious about having a lot of clones of the same cow. Genetic Diversity is good, genetic narrowness is usually bad. There is, for instance, a very real chance that everyone's favorite yellow banana will be unviable in 10-20 years. It may be too late to save the banana from poor stewardship and a lack of genetic diversity.

The fact is, breeding cows the old way is still better. Let's stick to that for now.

whats so good about the cows we have now anyways, they've been breed so much they are practically stupid. without us putting fences around them or keeping them fed, most of them will die out anyways. they have already lost most of thier surviving instinct.

before they were exploited by humans, the cows used to be smart and ornery now they are the retard versions of their former selves.

cloning is just another way to get more meat into the animal that we breed to eat.

We eat 'clone' food all the time. Banana's for instance are genetically identical. They are virtual clones. Which is why genetisists worry about the safety of banana's as a food. The banana has no genetic diversity to help it survive a blight or other disease. This would also be an issue with cloned animals. Also, we eat bio-engineered food all the time too, the only difference is, when humans 'bio-engineered' food in the old days, we called it 'selective breeding' Cows today are nothing like cattle of yesteryear. Neither is corn, tomatos, most all fruits (what the heck is a 'nectarine?) navel oranges are a good example. We even go further. We introduce specific kinds of rot (funguses and bacteria) to certain foods to create interesting other types of food like Beer, Bread and cheese. And to make matters worse, we actually drink fluids secreted by the breasts of cattle and goats...ewww. Not to mention eating disgorged bee vomit (honey.) The list goes on. In my opinion, if it tastes good and is nutritious, yea!!! Dig in mates. I've even eaten sugar ants---yum! taste like candy--and fried locusts (hate the legs and wings) but as for the rest, taste like nutty peanuts a little. Almost everything is edible somehow. Thats the joy of living in a planetary bio-mass we evolved in!

Walker

Which is why genetisists worry about the safety of banana's as a food. The banana has no genetic diversity to help it survive a blight or other disease. This would also be an issue with cloned animals

Exactly the point. Glad someone else realises. ;)
Sub, TnT, this is a much more important issue that either of you seem able to understand, so I'll leave it at that.

To me, when it comes to this type of thing:

Cloning and altering plants and vegetables is all right. We've been eating genetically altered vegetables for a while now but that doesn't mean they'll be healthier. The tomatoes we eat today are altered to ripen far after the date they are picked, but that is only on the outside. They look very plump and delicious but come out tasting dry and bland. So while it's all right and pretty safe to clone vegetation-- apart from the disease thing-- it's even better yet to grow your own vegetables. So I call a no on this.

Livestock cloning I wont touch. The livestock business is already overgrown and it's a serious problem for the natural community and cloning cows to make more isn't going to make the problem any less or the cows any more delicious. When cows eat they tend to both over graze and pull the grass up from the roots and farmers, in efforts to surplus profits, allow cows to graze near streams where it is actually not legal to let them graze. It puts more soil and farm run off in the water which the cows may end up drinking later-- or we might as well. The number of cows we have is already enough and that issue needs to be controlled better.

i understand the importance of biodiversity.

but like i said...cows don't really have much chance of survival if we all die out.
traits have been breed to make them meaty and tasty for us not to make them smart and strong

subcultured
but like i said...cows don't really have much chance of survival if we all die out. traits have been breed to make them meaty and tasty for us not to make them smart and strong

It's not survival in the wild that matters, it's survival within their herds. If disease strikes a large number of genetically identical animals are far more likely to succumb severely. Think about it... This is the most basic example, but if one identical beast succumbs, none of the others have any innate greater chance of surviving. And with the way farming is you breed from limited gene pools anyway, so what would normally be a small gene pool within a herd will shrink to a tiny pinprick.

And then what if beasts with some error in their genes are the ones chosen to be copied? And this perpetuates while other genotypes are not bred from... Sooner or later you're stuck with the problem without realising it with no way back. These dead ends have happened already through selective breeding in various creatures, dogs and cats especially, and it's what helps completely wipe out the remaining populations of endangered species as their gene pools shrink.

Your point about cattle not being able to survive in the wild isn't actually true Sub. It could happen several decades from now due to genetic engineering, or maybe it could happen now with certain strange freakish breeds, but generally cattle can survive in the wild better than any human. I'm no farmer but I'm not unaware of farming practises, and I know a few things: Cattle will often break free and live "feral" quite easily.

couldn't they just clone a rump steak, instead of a whole cow?

im a bit rusty on the cloning process

neohobo
Someday, they will likely be able to grow a steak in a vat, but that won't really be "cloning," it will be something else. And as with cloning, the real question will be "does this technique actually work?"

Maybe someday soon, actually. But when they talk about cloning a plant or animal this year, they're talking about a plant or animal with a pretty normal life-cycle. So cloning a cow gets you a pregnant cow.

Why, someday soon, we may even perfect the ability to clone cows. We might even be there already - but I'm not convinced.

Personally, I'm holding out for the day with they have "replicators" like on Star Trek, and machines can assemble the food we want from raw elements. But I'm fairly convinced that humanity will wipe itself out before we get there.

Hawk
Personally, I'm holding out for the day with they have "replicators" like on Star Trek, and machines can assemble the food we want from raw elements. But I'm fairly convinced that humanity will wipe itself out before we get there.

Ditto on that. =D

I was raised a farmer and I can tell you that any artificial shortcuts you include in a biological process is a bad thing.

In fact, shortcuts in general are bad for everyone in the long run. The older I get the more I want to raise my own food. Buying food across a counter that was produced, packaged and prepared under conditions I don't know about is unhealthy. It's kind of like buying your heart transplant on ebay.

-Dave

Roguehill
I was raised a farmer and I can tell you that any artificial shortcuts you include in a biological process is a bad thing.

In fact, shortcuts in general are bad for everyone in the long run. The older I get the more I want to raise my own food. Buying food across a counter that was produced, packaged and prepared under conditions I don't know about is unhealthy. It's kind of like buying your heart transplant on ebay.

-Dave

i though farming was all about picking the best crop/animal to breed. so cows become more domesticated because who wants to fight a cow every time it's slaughter time. so wouldn't that be already an artificial shortcut? something that wasn't really a big characteristics of a cow.

farming is all about changing what nature intended...(ie. seedless grapes)

Moderator Edit!

Posts not related to the cloned cattle discussion have been removed. Have a nice day! And support our dairy farmers.