jaex
I want to post food analogies since I've been starving for the past 3 hours and I finally just ate. I don't care that this has all been said in one way or another. I'm celebrating my stomach's happiness now.

A chef can use the same ingredients as someone else and still make the food taste entirely different(not only that, but they can probably make an entirely different type of food). In the end, someone will inevitably complain to them that "It's great, but... YOU USED TOMATOES! Everyone uses those!" And someone will probably still say, "But, it tastes almost exactly like the specialty dish at The Obscure Diner out in The-Middle-of-Nowhere, Nitpickingville!"

And sometimes people will try to sue for the food being too hot, or including ingredients that they're allergic to even though the warning was on the menu.

But does any of that really matter as long as it tastes good? As long as the majority of the people experiencing it, enjoy it?

It all depends on whether you want to focus on the individual parts of something or on the final product in the end.

But... if all you've had for the past 3 months is pizza and you're tired of it, then of course even the best pizza ever will probably make you barf at that point. Still, some people don't ever seem to get sick of pizza.

At some point in the future there could be new ingredients to play with, too. Ingredients that we can't even imagine now, because we're just looking in the wrong places or something.

2 posts and you're already filled to the brim with awesome, ya'll come back now ya hear?

Most cliches I can overlook and still enjoy the work that they're in but there's just some that are all kinds of frustrating. In general I don't like expository monologues, but I absolutely hate them when they're delivered in weird places. Like when a character is only just introduced or when a character is doing something that normally seems like it would require some concentration. The latter is the most annoying to me, I dunno why but it just seems like a bad time to get emotional about your dead son when you're performing open heart surgery or trying to defuse a bomb or something.

jaex, if I eat you, will I gain your analogy making skills?

jaex
At some point in the future there could be new ingredients to play with, too. Ingredients that we can't even imagine now, because we're just looking in the wrong places or something.

Oh, this is what I was sort of going for, but put much more elegantly.

When the hero takes out low-level thugs in the start of the comic just to show off a bit of their ability. You know... lady getting robbed... or bank getting robbed... or homeless dude getting beatup... the stuff like that that gets totally predictable.

I don't feel like joining the argument. I'll just list some cliches I'm tired of.

- Yelling the name of the attack you're performing (unless it's used as parody).
- Characters coming back from the dead (or seemingly being dead). I'm okay with it happening now and then, but for some comics/TV-series/videogames, nobody stays dead, and I think that cheapens death itself and hurts the creator's credibility.
- Spunky and ambitious high school girls who are always late to school, and who deal with common everyday problems while saving the world.
- The harem anime situation.
- Using crimes against orphans to prove how bad the villain is (or how good the hero is).

Mr Lostman
EDIT: Oh, and what Skullbie said.

Skullbie
Are you trying to sound like a pretentious dickbag for fun or is it ingrained in you today?

Oh gods, do you two try to be that obtuse or does it come naturally?

You both just emphatically agreed with jaex who was saying the same thing as Nickguy, Hyena and I.

This just goes to prove so very many things. All of them so very disappointing -_-

I don't find that many cliches bother me that much, but some that do are:

1. The hero that can do no wrong, EVER, and never makes mistakes

2. Shouting the name of an attack, it's always seemed kind of odd. Why tell the enemy what you're about to do? You may aswell yell 'I shoot my gun at you!'

3. The student turned 'save the world' hero. I don't mind it sometimes, if the story other than that is really really good, but if the story isn't that great either then...no lol

oh em gee, I love some of these 'cliches' you guys are mentioning.

The average kid who's destined to save the world?? ARGHG I don't care if Harry Potter already saved the world from Voldemort, it's a classic awesome plotline!!!

The villain who has some sort of background/reason to be villainous?! that's not a cliche, that's just good writing! sure, it can be pulled off wrong, but who cares about a villain who's a villain simply because he's, well, villainous?

You guys who are arguing about whether nothing's new or there are new things (plot-wise) make me chortle. It's like, chicken-vs-egg. And who cares. For instance: The Hub! I mean, there's an original comic. Name me another story with that plotline. Or my comic! Or anything! Maybe the 'otherworlder' aspect of the Hub has ocurred in other works, but not in a way that makes me think, "wow, the hub is just like XX!" Or with The Optimist. Maybe there are other works with a single father who favors his son, and maaaaybe there's one where they happen to be Lithuanian. But chances are, the way it's worked out is different than my comic. The threads and nuances are what make a story, not the general plot arc.

Kristen Gudsnuk
The threads and nuances are what make a story, not the general plot arc.

Again, that's basically what we're saying. The whole original contention of Nick and Hyena was misunderstood in a very stupid, almost "FOX news" sort of a way.

Thank goodness someone popped up who could speak their language.

You seem to have a very tenuous grasp of the English language. Are you British, by chance?

Mr Lostman
You seem to have a very tenuous grasp of the English language. Are you British, by chance?

Oh lordy, it's ad hominem!
I shall faint, someone, please catch me.

I'm terrible at arguing, so I'll just say my own cliche hates:

>Just about every BL comic out there. Shy, effeminate but oh-so cute and loving boy falls in love with stoic, unfeeling douche who is straight but for some reason turns gay because that oh-so cute and loving boy is "different" and "makes him feel".
Or two guys hate each other but they have sex just because and then they fall in love.
(Starfighter anyone?)

>The comedic villain who is an idiot. Along side with the quirky but perfect super hero who always thwarts him/her.

>YOU'RE THE CHOSEN ONE. Need I say more?

>Everything that is Twilight.

>OH NO IT'S A WAAATERRFAAALLLLL HOW COULD WE NOT HAVE SEEEEN THIIIIIS?

But hey, these cliches obviously wouldn't have lasted this long if they didn't work and that's why people use them.

Freegurt
>Everything that is Twilight.

twilight hasnt been around long enough to be a cliche lol

ozoneocean
saying the same thing as Nickguy, Hyena and I.

The main thing i was agreeing with in Jaex posts was that there could someday be new ingredients, i.e. something original, which completely goes against the blabber of your posts 'NOTHING can be original ever now'. It's bullshit, you're those guys arguing from nitpickville about some obscure diner you probably haven't been too yourself and just assume is there.

And I never said it had to be original to be good, 1/3 the comics i read are video game parody comics and genre parody reusing every last trope and cliche in the book for laughs, and i still think they're awesome. But i do appreciate an original comic idea and i do find them (usually via webcomics and indy publishers)
Soooo lets be done with this little poopfest and agree to disagree or move on :)
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@Freegurt
Starfighter is probably one of the better bl comics out there, if you take out the 36 pages of buttsecks i guess. Cloverhoney(?) is also pretty decent for avoiding boys that act like fat hyperactive girls.
Things i hate about bl
-When an attractive girls asks the main character out and his best friend clings on him from the back all jealously 'he's busy! >0' and it's like...who the fuck does that?
-When the main character is this shy loser and this freaking hottie who's literally followed by a mass of squealing girls wants buttsecks from him and only hiiim~~~
-goofy girl teacherXserious tall student. It seems like a twist idea but it's actually been done to death.

I appreciate how well drawn most of these comics are, i'm curious to see a bl co,mic written by a gay man and not a young girl, but i doubt that'll ever happen :/

Skullbie
...I appreciate how well drawn most of these comics are, i'm curious to see a bl co,mic written by a gay man and not a young girl, but i doubt that'll ever happen :/

I've seen a few, and to be quite honest, they're scary.

Skullbie
I appreciate how well drawn most of these comics are, i'm curious to see a bl co,mic written by a gay man and not a young girl, but i doubt that'll ever happen :/

I'd do it, but I can't draw yet.

Skullbie
'NOTHING can be original ever now'.

It seems you don't really grasp the content of those posts too well, nor even really that of jaex who you were agreeing with so vociferously.

Well it's no matter. People don't have to understand everything everybody says all the time, it would be great if they could buuuut that's impossible. It's just enlightening knowing what people do understand and what they don't. :)

Skullbie
The main thing i was agreeing with in Jaex posts was that there could someday be new ingredients, i.e. something original, which completely goes against the blabber of your posts 'NOTHING can be original ever now'. It's bullshit, you're those guys arguing from nitpickville about some obscure diner you probably haven't been too yourself and just assume is there.

actually,....no.

the nitpickers are the ones who, if i put a schoolgirl in my comic, would go "OMGZ THATS SO CLICHE YOU HAVE A SCHOOLGIRL JUST LIKE *insert manga here*!!!!!!"

like i said an dlike jaex said, its up to you as the writer (or chef in jaex's example) to make the story (or dish) good and appeal to people. you cant blame the ingredients for a bad dish all the time.

*reads thread*

*lifts his finger and opens his mouth, ready to present everyone with a long passage on the topic*

*pauses*

*shakes head and leaves the thread*

I can't think of any certain storyline cliches I'm tired of seeing; most of the cliches that I've read have been reinvented well enough that only the bare concept of the story can be considered cliche, and at that point it doesn't bother me.

Characters are a very important way to keep old ideas fresh. A situation can work out so many different ways depending on what the character does. Hell, characters are important, period. If you screw up on your characters then the whole story will fail.

A lot of the character cliches mentioned in this thread bother me, but usually if I notice them in a story, I lose interest and ditch it. Very rarely, the story (or more likely, another character) will cause enough interest to make me stick with it.

Anyway...

jaex
TOMATOES!

There. Now it's a food fight.

I love you Kristen, but you used my comic to contradict my point! But I won't cheapen myself by listing you the twelve to twenty stories/sources that I ripped off. I y'all can't tell, then I won't! lol!

This might sound crazy, but I am SO TIRED of seeing school uniforms in manga and anime. I know that kids have to wear school uniforms in Japan, but I just got finished watching a butt load of anime, and every character from every show is wearing the same outfit! There may be a slight variation, but it's like all the same thing! It's almost like a lazy cop-out to just make everybody where a school uniform, ALL THE TIME!

Being someone who goes to an all girls academy with uniforms, I have to add that uniforms are damn comfy so I don't blame them!

-This isn't necessarily a cliche, but It's annoying when an artist only has one generic face for their main characters. They might give minor characters different faces and body shapes, but the main characters are all pretty much interchangeable. It's like watching an episode of The Hills.

-I'm definately guilty of this, but to add to the top, using the same hairstyle for every character and only tweeking it slightly and changing the color. This is esepcially hard to avoid when you try to keep all the hairstyles natural looking. I always run into "Okay, character A and character B's hairstyle is too similar... Just add bangs!"

Heh, Ozone is just letting loose in thread. Tired of being considerate and helpful? Every admin deserves a mental vacation.

I think... stories seem to repeat themselves in structure and theme... because that's how stories work. That's how the human mind accepts stories.

This goes back to the topic of "creativity and mental illness." Sure, you can create something completely original... but then is it acceptable to the audience's palate? As in, is it good, or even appreciable?

However, stories and characters do evolve over history, as the world's culture and worldview changes. A story about a base jumper would be completely alien to an audience 100 years ago... heavy metal would sound like random noise (or just very bad music) to an audience 100 years ago... but 100 years ago, they would be completely "original" (just not "good"). Presented today, they can be "good", but not "original". You're writing/drawing for an audience, not just for yourself.

Oh, and giant organic mechas (Eva)? Done in Greek mythology.

mlai
Oh, and giant organic mechas (Eva)? Done in Greek mythology.

Yeah, this is the aspect that is misunderstood: the idea that "originality" involves things, or "WOW you guyzzzzzzz, I just maed a story with a people who are maed of feet and talk in fart sounds! I am leik SO original! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D!!! The Edward foot was so mad he was tumours. >_<""

You could even say the first film of Dracula was "original" because it had never been filmed before. And of course it WAS "original" in the simplistic superficial sense that many in this thread seem to prefer. And if that sort of thing is your preferred benchmark for "originality" then that's perfectly OK, but the whole concept has limited use in relation to creative works. Neophytes tend to think of it as a mark of quality, but it's more valuable for legal attribution of copyright and forensic historical analysis of the development of ideas.

No, it goes back to pattern and theme. The other stuff in whatever combination is completely and utterly irrelevant. :)
Pursuit of the idea of "originality" is idiotic and leads to failure. If the work is well made it will probably appear "original" in any case.

BTW- giant mecha Greek mythology probably isn't a good example, there's probably some in there somewhere. the Greeks were mechanically inclined and so were their gods. Read enough of the original stories and you find all sorts of mind boggling stuff. ^_^

On the subject of originality, I think no matter how hard you try your always going to use things that have been used before. I think the originality people should go for is trying to combine the 'cliche' things in different ways. It's like you need a cliche (most of the time, not always) to start your story, eg. (and this is common for me lol) 'main character's home is attacked/friend/family member is killed/kidnapped, leading him/her to go on a quest to get revenge/rescue them. But you can add things into that very basic story to make it more original. For example, the setting, the characters themselves, the reasons for the attack/killing/kidnapping, plot twists, there's loads you can do to make a cliche storyline more original.

Well, that's just my opinion anyway :)

ozoneocean

If we're talking originality in the purest sense of the word then everything you've said is true. I agree with pretty much all of it, anyway.

It's just that these days, "original" doesn't seem to mean "the first," anymore. When someone says it, it tends to mean "one of the first that I've seen."

So yeah, I do think it's crazy for anyone trying to be the first one ever to create a certain thing. But to strive to be perceived as original by the majority of your audience is totally different.

And it does go back to pattern and theme, but I wouldn't say the other stuff is totally irrelevant. If the pattern and theme are the skeleton, then the "other stuff" is the flesh that sits on top of it. I don't think I'd be able to tell my skull apart from any other average skull at a glance, but my face is another matter.

Wow....Some passion going down here. Opinions vary. From an artist-writer POV it's interesting to hear the voice of the public. I suppose we're all victims of the cliche and don't forget sterotypes. I like well developed story lines that don't natter on....and on...Also characters that have depth and continue to grow while maintaining their identity.

Just my POV, no need to respond. ;)

All i want to do is list cliches.
-the kid that gets picked on at school and nobody likes but becomes a superhero or learns karate and shows everyone what he's made of. Gets the girl, saves the world...

Hell actually i love that cliche. Secretly, I enjoy cheesey cheesey stories.

Now i want to go watch Karate Kid

I don't think I'd be able to tell my skull apart from any other average skull at a glance, but my face is another matter.

This is the best analogy in this entire thread.