I know this is probably hypocritical of me, but there are some cliche's I am SICK of seeing in cartoons/anime and comics/manga.

This might sound crazy, but I am SO TIRED of seeing school uniforms in manga and anime. I know that kids have to wear school uniforms in Japan, but I just got finished watching a butt load of anime, and every character from every show is wearing the same outfit! There may be a slight variation, but it's like all the same thing! It's almost like a lazy cop-out to just make everybody where a school uniform, ALL THE TIME! Every guy in every anime I just watched dresses like Shinji Ikari! I just want some variety in my character designs!

Well that's my one rant, do you guys have any cliche's that you're tired of seeing???

Probably my number one is the "tortured soul loner" type. The anti-hero that's got a troubled past, and is either set on revenge or on the long, hard road to redemption. Tall dark and handsome. His life is beset with melodramatic inner struggles. Usually accompanied by a good-hearted woman that's dead set on understanding him and helping him heal his psychological wounds. Often present in vampire stories.

I mean, sometimes it works, and sometimes I am attracted to this kind of character/story. But it's mostly played the hell out, you know?

i'm sick of seeing dimensionless bad guys. making em flashy doesnt replace personality.i mean you can get yer character across as the antagonist without making em clinically retarded,right?i mean this happens with good guys too, but hell i think it just makes me more upset when it comes to the bad guys becuase it's so obvious you're just throwing a wet hankey at yer protagonist to make him look good instead of giving this evil douche some potential!c'mon!lookit the actual bastards that've lived throughout history, as horrible as many of them were, they were interesting! lookit attilla the hun! he wasnt some soppy douche that sat in a fancy chair all day dressed in spandex, laughing and spouting crappy one liners,hatching scheme after scheme that doesnt go anywhere. there's alot of tv shows out there that when the episode is over, it has to make sure everything goes back the way it was, and that annoys me becuase you just fucking expect it.i like things, that when i watch em, i dont KNOW how it's gonna end.

Hyena H_ll
Probably my number one is the "tortured soul loner" type. The anti-hero that's got a troubled past, and is either set on revenge or on the long, hard road to redemption. Tall dark and handsome. His life is beset with melodramatic inner struggles. Usually accompanied by a good-hearted woman that's dead set on understanding him and helping him heal his psychological wounds. Often present in vampire stories.

I mean, sometimes it works, and sometimes I am attracted to this kind of character/story. But it's mostly played the hell out, you know?

yeah, that's definatly over played too.i guess that's charming these days for some reason. i've noticed too that many of the same people who are drawn to these characters are repelled away from more all powerful characters like Superman. many of them find it boring, which it can be.i suppose it's just how the trend's rolling UNFORTUNATLY.

Daiconv
I know this is probably hypocritical of me, but there are some cliche's I am SICK of seeing in cartoons/anime and comics/manga.

This might sound crazy, but I am SO TIRED of seeing school uniforms in manga and anime. I know that kids have to wear school uniforms in Japan, but I just got finished watching a butt load of anime, and every character from every show is wearing the same outfit! There may be a slight variation, but it's like all the same thing! It's almost like a lazy cop-out to just make everybody where a school uniform, ALL THE TIME! Every guy in every anime I just watched dresses like Shinji Ikari! I just want some variety in my character designs!

Well that's my one rant, do you guys have any cliche's that you're tired of seeing???

That's not a cliche. That's just a limited wardrobe, and sort of "truth in television." A series set at a school with a school uniform would indeed feature school uniforms. A cliche would be more of a "high school student wakes up and goes to save the world" type deal.

Ones I hate .... does "Luke, I am your father!" stuff count? I think it does.

Well I guess it's not so much a cliche, just me wanting to see characters wear something besides school uniforms on every single show.

Hm. The uniforms thing doesn't bother me-- I mean, they're uniforms, they're supposed to be uniform. (lol!)

* Fanservice
* Angsty boys and the chirpy, indefatigable girls who love them
* black-and-white portrayals of protagonist and antagonist
* Edward Cullen and Bella Swan
* Excessive, unrealistic bravery in the protagonist.

Wangsty pasts as villain's motivation.

I mean, I know that is supposed to build realistic and 3dimensional characters, but sometimes a guy/girl is evil because something is really twisted in his/her mind, not because she/he was raped or something like that. Sometimes, monsters are just monsters.

That not only comes as lazy writing but also erases all that is cool about a villain.

cliches IMO, are only bad if you notice them as such. if not, then they are plot devices. for instance, a girl can wear a school girl uniform, and if thats a big focus of her character, then yes, its cliche, but if not, then it adds to her character rather than distracting.

since nothing can be original, its up to you as the writer to take "cliche things" and make them work. I mean, my comic is full of cliches but ive yet to get comments saying "i cant stand this cliche villain/hero/etc" i would like to think that ive portrayed that cliche in an entertaining light.

NickGuy
since nothing can be original,

I freaking hate when people say this, first it's completely untrue. There are two basic types of original; the one you're talking about with a new spin on old situations and truly original comic situations. The 2nd ones are rare but they do exist and there are some coming out this year. (Chew is a good example)
Go figure the ones saying it usually make comics with a mess of unoriginal parody tropes and say 'nothing's original!' as if to justify why they shouldn't try to do better. *super gayain rage*


Um....uh, well i'm sick of
-Harems
-feminine male 'crossdress' characters that are prettier than the girls at the school. Mariaholic and otoboku gtfo
-The 'two guys' idiot duo that sit around all day and mouthpiece for the author
-Authors that bitch about manga having unrealistically pretty boys when their comic is full of curvy, large breated females with perfect hair fawning over the lame main characters. (okay i've only seen this twice lol but teh ironing was delicous)


I think school uniforms can look cute sometimes, i'm sick of the blue/white ones though:

Skullbie

NickGuy
since nothing can be original,

I freaking hate when people say this, first it's completely untrue. There are two basic types of original; the one you're talking about with a new spin on old situations and truly original comic situations. The 2nd ones are rare but they do exist and there are some coming out this year. (Chew is a good example)
Go figure the ones saying it usually make comics with a mess of unoriginal parody tropes and say 'nothing's original!' as if to justify why they shouldn't try to do better. *super gayain rage*

I agree with Skullbie.
But the only ones I really see doing the "nothing original" is manga. I haven't personally seen any in american comics (but I don't really read many comics...or manga, but I'm speaking mostly of webcomics anyway :P)

Truth is, I'm sure there's tons of subjects that haven't been touched on yet.
Like, a comic about fixing a door knob? Yeah. Haven't heard of it.
If it's been done, I might cry.

Anyway, Cliches I personally hate, are...

- Cheesy powerups: This one really bothers me, thankfully, none of the comics I read have done this...yet. But in a lot of other media, there seems to be some sort of cheesy power-up kind of thing. A great example is the whole, Super Sonic thing. I never really liked that. Who cares? I just want to see him run fast.

And a few of the other ones listed above.

I'm terrible with providing examples, I realize.

NickGuy
since nothing can be original, its up to you as the writer to take "cliche things" and make them work. I mean, my comic is full of cliches but ive yet to get comments saying "i cant stand this cliche villain/hero/etc" i would like to think that ive portrayed that cliche in an entertaining light.

Completely agreed. Formulas work.

I don't claim to have any sort of original or groundbreaking material, but I hope that I present it in a way that's unique enough to give the readers the feeling that it isn't something they've seen twenty times before. I may or may not succeed in that, by the way.

I agree with Nick and Hyena on "everything's beend done". Even if you don't realise it, you're repeating ideas. But all the best films that we all love are the ones that handle cliches well and mix them up nicely.
Even in music there are all the old cliches, but that doesn't mean the final song or the arrangement will sound like you've heard it before. Often it takes an expert to spot all the derivations and cliches.

Dark Pascual
Wangsty pasts as villain's motivation.

That not only comes as lazy writing but also erases all that is cool about a villain.

That's hardly lazy. It's much easier just to make someone seem bad rather than bother making a past for them and finding the best way to show it.
Besides, "realistic" evil is a mix of bad pasts, something different about how that person views things because of their mind, and the way their goals conflict with those of the "hero". Most usually it's just perspective.

A cliche I don't like- Supremely competent, confident, young characters. Nothing phases them and they can handle anything. Makes you want to be the villain and kick em in the privates so you can make them cry. >.<

I could do without seeing effeminate winged male characters. It feels like what they're doing to angels, they did to vampires already. Taking something bad ass, making it pretty and wussified. That's my filthy scruffy opinion and I'm sticking with it.

That said, I could do without the constant array of completely clean skinned beautiful/handsome characters in general.

?
I agree with Nick and Hyena on "everything's beend done". Even if you don't realise it, you're repeating ideas. But all the best films that we all love are the ones that handle cliches well and mix them up nicely.
Even in music there are all the old cliches, but that doesn't mean the final song or the arrangement will sound like you've heard it before. Often it takes an expert to spot all the derivations and cliches.

This is lazy people's thinking.

?
A cliche I don't like- Supremely competent, confident, young characters. Nothing phases them and they can handle anything. Makes you want to be the villain and kick em in the privates so you can make them cry. >.<

That's not even close to a cliche. That's barely a trope, if that.

Mr Lostman
This is lazy people's thinking.

lol! This is very young inexpereinced people thinking ;)

Mr Lostman
That's not even close to a cliche.

Oh it is indeed. A 100% full on cliche. It's usually a hallmark of badly done entertainment for young teens and pre-teens though (in film, TV, books, and comics), so fortunately I don't see too much of it these days, -not being unlucky enough to fall into that demographic any longer , myself :)

Newspaper comic cliche I really hate: A character is obsessed with golf (replace "golf" with "video games" for webcomic cliches I hate). Oftentimes, these are nothing more than thinly veiled non-jokes showing off what the creator does when they're not mass-producing from the cartoon factory.

A lot of people think my fanfiction is cliched.

It's about a boy named Valiant Hope. He's just like your average teenager: he gets good grades, he's good at sports, and has many, many friends. His only weakness is that sometimes he cares too much about his friends and humanity in general. One day, a mysterious group of people known as the Order of Mystery declare Valiant to be the Chosen One. As the Chosen One, he must defeat an evil that has plagued the Earth for trillions of years. The leader of this evil is simply known as Rellik. Rellik has never been defeated before since he has the power to control his evil minions, control weather and time, and kill people just by looking at them. In order to defeat Rellik, Valiant has to obtain the Sword of Hope that is locked behind the Gate of Truth. When Valiant gets to the gate, he finds no way to open it, but the gate opens anyways. It turns out that the gate only opens for people with a pure heart. Valiant grabs the sword and prepares to head to the Fortress of Hatred where Rellik is. When they finally fight, Valiant easily defeats Rellik, due to his goodness overpowering his evil. It turns out that Valiant Hope really was the Chosen One. The End.

ozoneocean

Mr Lostman
This is lazy people's thinking.

lol! This is very young inexpereinced people thinking ;)

Mr Lostman
That's not even close to a cliche.

Oh it is indeed. A 100% full on cliche. It's usually a hallmark of badly done entertainment for young teens and pre-teens though (in film, TV, books, and comics), so fortunately I don't see too much of it these days, -not being unlucky enough to fall into that demographic any longer , myself :)

Hey, it's an old trope. Look at mythology for yer references: Theseus goin' off to slay the minotaur, for one- there's yer quintessential "confident and can do no wrong young dude".*

And as far as originality- there are original ways to treat or present material. There are original ways to combine story elements and character traits. But overall, you're probably not doin' anything new. It's not being lazy, it's being realistic. And the downfall of too many young artists and writers is that they're so focused on being original that they often eschew quality and sincerity. They feel like they can't tell this or that story just because someone else did, so they end up telling, um, no story at all.

*(Of course he does do wrong, but the whole "leave yer girlfriend in a drunken stupor on some island, and forget to tell yer dad you're not dead so that he offs himself" stuff plays a minuscule role in the myth. ;) )

ozoneocean

Mr Lostman
This is lazy people's thinking.

lol! This is very young inexpereinced people thinking ;)

This is what 'old experienced' people say when they realise they're completely creatively drained and can't or won't do anything about it, so they just say 'WELL THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT GOES'.

Custard Trout
his is what 'old experienced' people say when they realise they're completely creatively drained and can't or won't do anything about it, so they just say 'WELL THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT GOES'.

Oh you'll learn too if you ever get any good at creation :)

I'm surprised more of you people don't realise it. Shocked really. The naivete is pretty scary, it's almost like being in a room full of creationists T_T
----------

I think where some of you are making the mistake is thinking that what we're saying is that "oh it's all been done before so I won't bother".
No, that's a teenager's way of thinking. That's WRONG.

The reality is that when you've created for a while you recognise patterns, you realise what works and what doesn't and how to improve on things and how to mix them together so they work better.
-That happens in everything from music, to physics, to drawing, to poetry and more.

ozoneocean

Custard Trout
his is what 'old experienced' people say when they realise they're completely creatively drained and can't or won't do anything about it, so they just say 'WELL THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT GOES'.

Oh you'll learn too if you ever get any good at creation :)

I'm surprised more of you people don't realise it. Shocked really. The naivete is pretty scary, it's almost like being in a room full of creationists T_T
----------

I think where some of you are making the mistake is thinking that what we're saying is that "oh it's all been done before so I won't bother".
No, that's a teenager's way of thinking. That's WRONG.

The reality is that when you've created for a while you recognise patterns, you realise what works and what doesn't and how to improve on things and how to mix them together so they work better.
-That happens in everything from music, to physics, to drawing, to poetry and more.

Honestly, the whole, "Nothing is original" is sort of like a trick question.
You can come up with the most random thing, and somebody on the other side of the world could have come up with it before you have, and you have no way of knowing.

You just have to make it your own, and pray that nobody is going to try to sue you for it.
And as long as you don't make it too much like anything else that's already out there, then you'll be fine.

Custard Trout
his is what 'old experienced' people say when they realise they're completely creatively drained and can't or won't do anything about it, so they just say 'WELL THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT GOES'.

Humbug! I've got tons of creative ideas, all stolen from more creative people and thinly disguised as my own! Ha! Now get off my lawn, ya whippersnapper! ;)

ozoneocean
I think where some of you are making the mistake is thinking that what we're saying is that "oh it's all been done before so I won't bother".
No, that's a teenager's way of thinking. That's WRONG.

The reality is that when you've created for a while you recognise patterns, you realise what works and what doesn't and how to improve on things and how to mix them together so they work better.
-That happens in everything from music, to physics, to drawing, to poetry and more.

That's what I was gettin' at; you just said it much better.

ozoneocean

Custard Trout
his is what 'old experienced' people say when they realise they're completely creatively drained and can't or won't do anything about it, so they just say 'WELL THAT IS JUST THE WAY IT GOES'.

Oh you'll learn too if you ever get any good at creation :)

I'm surprised more of you people don't realise it. Shocked really. The naivete is pretty scary, it's almost like being in a room full of creationists T_T
----------

I think where some of you are making the mistake is thinking that what we're saying is that "oh it's all been done before so I won't bother".
No, that's a teenager's way of thinking. That's WRONG.

I like how you basically resort to ad hominems with people you disagree with. Why I don't know (that's a lie, I do have an idea and it's based on demonstrated intelligence), but since you do this a lot, I generally ignore your posts in every debate. Like back in the swearing topic. You lost, but hey. Namecalling is easy! I, too, can win if I act smug and belittle people! lol! And now I'll be disappointed in you. T_T

No. Your naivete is scary (and lazy. And creatively drained.) Let me tell you why. You are in fact mixing up archetypes, tropes, and cliches. You are confusing characters with the plots themselves. You can, in fact, have an original story with "cliche" characters. The "doing something with a twist" is generally about characters and not the story. Your argument goes from "parts of a story" and "the whole story" being derative. Can't argue if you won't keep to one thing.

Archetype: An Archetypal Character is a character who appears over and over in legends far and wide even in cultures that have shut themselves off from the world. (Ex: the tragic hero trying to overcome the evils of his past.)

Cliche: basically a stereotype. ("Luke, I am your father!" ) Furthermore, a cliche is not a cliche until it is run into the ground. (based on your earlier example and reply, you still don't know what a cliche is. Sad, isn't it?)

Trope: Tropes are storytelling devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. (Girl scouts are evil.)

I'm just going to add in genres. Hopefully you should know about this, what with working at a webcomic site, but you never know. You can still have new genres (or if you go with broader groups, subsets). New genres (or at least subsets) will come and go.

Original premises are easy, and exist (or will when someone thinks them up). They may not be up to your (low) standards, but they exist. Just because you are not creative enough doesn't mean someone else is. "Nothing new under the sun" is a myth that started in the bible. (which only meant God knew everything and nothing surprised him. Since you are no god, you don't know everything and can be surprised. Why you would cling to a myth found in a book of myths is beyond me.)

Oh blah blah blah. The difference is I always know what I'm talking about so I'm frustrated when speaking with those who don't.

You will one day kid. Till then just blab on about winning and losing etc and maybe someone will read your posts.
-I know I sound mean here, but you have to hear it from somebody. ;)

The ad hominem crack: you'll find it's a response in kind. As always.

Hyena H_ll
That's what I was gettin' at; you just said it much better.

Heh, it's a talent :)
As one creative professional to another, I think we can safely conclude we know of what we speak.

Everythings been done. It just has. You can come up with the most original brilliant idea and someone will come along and shove in your face whats been done before. It's just how it is.

Thats not necessarily a BAD THING, though. Just because something has been used before doesnt make it unuseable again. Like I said, its up to you as the writer/artist to put the new spin on it. Re-using an old idea is hardly lazy.

ozoneocean
Oh blah blah blah. The difference is I always know what I'm talking about so I'm frustrated when speaking with those who don't.

You will one day kid. Till then just blab on about winning and losing etc and maybe someone will read your posts.
-I know I sound mean here, but you have to hear it from somebody. ;)

The ad hominem crack: you'll find it's a response in kind. As always.

Hyena H_ll
That's what I was gettin' at; you just said it much better.

Heh, it's a talent :)
As one creative professional to another, I think we can safely conclude we know of what we speak.

Are you trying to sound like a pretentious dickbag for fun or is it ingrained in you today?

Blah blah blah yourself. You and nick keep using blind assertions all you want. You've shown you have no idea what you're talking about.

Stop ignoring people's well made points to make inane ones of your own. That's a really bad habit in discussion.

EDIT: Oh, and what Skullbie said.

lol what a thread, if i wouldve known that my first post wouldve been taken in such a wrong way i wouldnt have made it.

i never said "nothing new exists, so stop trying". using a well established storytelling device is not a sign of lack of creativity....or else anyone whos ever had ANYTHING EVER USED BEFORE is uncreative. :rolleyes:

have fun arguing a pointless argument...ill go draw.

I want to post food analogies since I've been starving for the past 3 hours and I finally just ate. I don't care that this has all been said in one way or another. I'm celebrating my stomach's happiness now.

A chef can use the same ingredients as someone else and still make the food taste entirely different(not only that, but they can probably make an entirely different type of food). In the end, someone will inevitably complain to them that "It's great, but... YOU USED TOMATOES! Everyone uses those!" And someone will probably still say, "But, it tastes almost exactly like the specialty dish at The Obscure Diner out in The-Middle-of-Nowhere, Nitpickingville!"

And sometimes people will try to sue for the food being too hot, or including ingredients that they're allergic to even though the warning was on the menu.

But does any of that really matter as long as it tastes good? As long as the majority of the people experiencing it, enjoy it?

It all depends on whether you want to focus on the individual parts of something or on the final product in the end.

But... if all you've had for the past 3 months is pizza and you're tired of it, then of course even the best pizza ever will probably make you barf at that point. Still, some people don't ever seem to get sick of pizza.

At some point in the future there could be new ingredients to play with, too. Ingredients that we can't even imagine now, because we're just looking in the wrong places or something.