I've never really been into comic books. But this weekend I went ahead and picked up the last Flash TPB, the one where Bart Allen dies. I've always been a big fan of the Flash (especially when I was a kid.) Now my experience with American TPBs is: this Flash book, Dangergirl, and that one Batman where the inmates took over Arkham Asylum.

Here's my question (hopefully to a coulpe of the DD'ers who read print comics more regularly than I): Is there a reason it's ok that the writing in these comics absolutley blows? The art is usually very good (or at least technically good) but the writing has been mediocre at best. And I'm sure there are well written comic books out there, but why are they (in my experience) the minority. I've been operating in the world of webcomics for a while now. Yes, there are alot of poor webcomics out there. But 95% of webcomics are done by amatuers. And whats more, the webcomics that aren't done by amatuers, or the ones where it's clear the creative force behind it is dedicated, are, if nothing else, very well written. Theres money and editors behind print comics, is it unreasonable that I would expect them to be better than a web comic, which is generally produced by "some guy" and edited by the microsoft paperclip?

Er... is this the comic called "Arkham Asylum" that you're talking about? If you think the writing in that one blows, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Anyway, the reason the majority of comic books are crap is the same reason the majority of music, literature, movies, TV and anything else you could name is crap. That's just how it is. Good stuff is rare, but it's worth looking for - in any medium.

I thought the writing in Arkham was disjointed and pretentious.

Bad, but a different kind of bad than the Flash comic I read over the weekend. Bad in a overly dramatic with a meandering vauge psychosis that will appeal strongly to teenage angst but get eye-rolls from anyone who knows psychology or philosophy, (but with absolutely stunning artwor.)

The Flash comic was bad in the more standard way, where there was no character development, characters didn't react realistically. Their thoughts didn't synch up to their actions. And their actions were pingeon-holed by the writers. You could tell on multiple occasions that even the writers were thinking "i don't know why this character would do this thing, but it furthers the story so he'll do it."

There were several points that one of the characters would ask a villain "why are you doing this, you know the flash is going to beat you, he's done it before, like a bajillion times" a bunch of characters asked this, on a bunch of different occasions... AND NO ONE ANSWERED THEM. Even the writer's didn't know what the motivations was! Which begs the question about why they'd draw attention to that fact by having their characters point it out.

Its the kinda stuff I would've done when I was 15, and then I'd look back on it today and be like "What was I thinking? Thats just bad writing. I suck"

I have to agree with kos, Arkham Asylum was a horrible read. I was so very excited to get it, what with the gorgeous art they'd previewed & Gaimen's amazing other work, but it was absolutely a horrid mess. I think "disjointed" & "pretentious" sums up that particular book quite well. I'm still floored so many consider that book a classic.

As far as bad writing in comics... Geez, 95% of comics are poorly written & plotted. It's harder to discuss quality graphic fiction than it is to gripe about the over-abundance of shite available.

As to why, that's easy. Most people don't seem to care that an entire character's history is erased by magic or that "dead" isn't really dead. People bitched about Spiderman, but I'll bet sales increased noticably on issues that followed that horrendous editorial descision.

And, seriously, online books aren't much better.

Later,
Chip

Uh. Neil Gaiman had nothing to do with Arkham Asylum.

Point still stands, whether I got the author right or not. Actually, with it being Morrison, my point is on better footing, since his work is EXTREMELY hit & miss.

Later,
Chip

Oh, you know, I read somewhere that AA is the best-selling American comic of all time. It's a big favorite of mine, and I'm actually glad there are people who hate it. I can tell you why I like it, but I certainly won't try to argue anyone into liking it too.

Have to agree on Morrison being hit and miss, anyway - I'm very disappointed with his recent Batman work, and the Invisibles never did anything for me either.

It's bloody GORGEOUS book, sh. It's just so damned impenetrable (IMO, of course).

Later,
Chip

cs3ink
It's bloody GORGEOUS book, sh. It's just so damned impenetrable (IMO, of course).

Well, it's a difficult read, but I 'got it' a long while ago, and now it's one of these things for me where everytime I come back to it, I notice another genius detail.

i only pick up the 100 bullets TPBs now.

i've lost the love for comics and TV because of all the crap stories and early cancellations (WTF happen to 21 down and the resistance?"

Executive Meddling [tvtropes.org] usually...

In my experience most of the really good artists and writers these days don't like having their creative works affected by profits and editor meddling. Because of that, a lot of them seem to be moving over to the newer idea of graphic novels in which from start to end it's their work alone and editors just make sure the story is connected and the text is grammatically correct. It makes it easier for them to control, and lets face it, most creators want total control over their work. Graphic novels by their very nature being treated more like a regular novel than a serialized monthly allow for greater freedom and flexibility.

Not to say that there aren't as many good writers and artist in the "mainstream" comics, but I think the graphic novels make it a bit easier for an artist to really show what they have and what they want, so a lot of the younger, newer talent is shifting over to graphic novels.

There are plenty of good American TPBs you can buy and read. Old stuff like Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, new stuff like... I thought Rising Stars was pretty good.

Point is, they're there and there's enough of them. But did you really expect The Flash TPB to be 1 of them when you picked it up? That's like buying a paperback romance novel off of a shelf, and being surprised and disappointed when it's not Romeo & Juliet.

i feel ya.
it's quite disappointing when you see a fantastic cover and great artwork on the pages, but find the story too uninspired to go on.
i'm not sure, perhaps it's because they too often rely on stuff that is sure to work, even if it has been already done countless times.
webcomics don't have restrictions like that so its easier to find fresh ideas.
but i must also say that most webcomics aren't as refined as the books. also, many online comics with great premises and interesting ideas often lack on fields like artwork, layout, grammar (lol), etc.
nevertheless, if you search thoroughly enough, you'll find great stuff anywhere =) .

mlai
But did you really expect The Flash TPB to be 1 of them when you picked it up? That's like buying a paperback romance novel off of a shelf, and being surprised and disappointed when it's not Romeo & Juliet.

Well you'd think heres a franchise that this company has built themselves on. It's been around since the golden age of comics. If they made a new comic with him in it, they'd have some sort of quality control. Not:

"Lets make a new Flash comic"
"What should it be about"
"I dunno, lets figger that out later. Just draw a guy running around for now"


I'm not expecting shakespeare, but I am expecting some sort of lighthearted action story I can enjoy without thinking. Lets take, for example, lethal weapon 4. A pretty shitty movie, sure, but it wasn't trying to be American Beauty. It was trying to be a light hearted, fun to watch action-comedy. And in THAT respect it was an outstanding success.

This was like they put a peice of feces in a flash costume and said "buy it"

kingofsnake
I thought the writing in Arkham was disjointed and pretentious.
(snip for length)
The Flash comic was bad in the more standard way, where there was no character development, characters didn't react realistically. Their thoughts didn't synch up to their actions. And their actions were pingeon-holed by the writers. You could tell on multiple occasions that even the writers were thinking "i don't know why this character would do this thing, but it furthers the story so he'll do it."

I disliked Arkham Asylum too.

The Flash has never struck me as a comic with any legs, really. I don't understand his popularity compared to other DC Comics that have so much raw potential, like Green Lantern or Wonder Woman.

Flash is overpowered. He'd be interesting, in my opinion, if he was only 10 times the speed of a normal man, and topped out at around 200 MPH, but instead he's like a human laser beam. The thunderbolt that is his symbol is too slow to characterize him anymore.

His Rogue's Gallery is the worst in comics. A psychic gorilla is his biggest nemesis.

He doesn't even "patrol" an interesting home city...Keystone City is nowhere near being like Gotham.

With raw material like that, how can he be written well?

I'm not saying that to excuse bad comics about him--I'm pointing out that one weakness in print comics is that they editorially obsess too much over the costume and the franchise without questioning the basics or the raw "stuff".

Some characters, looping back to the original topic of this thread, should be killed. I'd put the Flash in that category.

Why do I have to defend print comics when they're still better than webcomics IMO? Okay, time for me to rant a little here.

First off, the reason print comics suck to you guys is because you're looking for the wrong material. If you're looking for literary genius in the Big 3 then stop right now because you won't find it. That's not to say that these guys hire bad writers (quite the contrary) but the material is owned by the COMPANY not the CREATOR and when profits are put before the creation, you instantly have to make design decisions that will please all the fans, not you as the owner of the material.

I can tell you right now that if you look on the graphic novel section at your local borders or walden books you'll find a plethora of good material but the things you should check for is if the comic is a limited series because then you know that there's actually going to be an end. Vertigo, one of my favorite imprints, has yet to print anything horrible. They've had some mediocre stuff, but most of it is very, very good. I can pit amazing Vertigo products like We3 and Fables against any webcomic (shoot, any print comic) and I guarantee you that it's better in both story, layout, and art than 90% of the material because they're limited series (well, not Fables but it is based on a niche market) and the creators were actually given some freedom.

My biggest problem with webcomics is that, because they are primarily drawn in spare time and they usually contain the very things the writers enjoy themselves, they seem like nothing more than glorified fancomics. Every videogame comic you read is about two friends who sit and play videogames while cracking bad jokes. Every Yaoi comic is two incredibly feminine men (despite the fact that most gay guys still look like guys) who make kissy kissy goo goo faces at each other and, as a rule, never have actual sex. Every action comic is guys with big muscles and big swords yelling at each other. The few webcomics that try to be daring and new or tread new grand are largely ignored... JUST LIKE PRINT COMICS OMG. Webcomics are, as a generality, pretentious and bland. There are always exceptions but they're usually designed with a small audience in mind.

Anyways, for every good webcomic you mention, I can name an equally good or better print comic. I don't believe that the two different types of comics are vastly different (besides how you read them, they're still designed to entertain) but just like you have bad print comics, you have equally worse webcomics. No one is immune to poor writing and bad drawing so these things are mutually exclusive either way.

Here's a small list of recommendations (comics and graphic novels):

Bone
Fables
Y the Last Man
Outlaw Nation
Cerebus
The Umbrella Academy
Omega the Unknown
The Acme Novelty Library
Maxwell Strangewell
The Ignatz Series (a collection of books by Fantagraphics highlighting foreign artists)
The Adventures of Tintin

BTW, there's something I need to gripe about Big 3 print comics that I'm not sure is often mentioned.

While print comics always have a higher technical standard in art and writing (anatomy always good, no spelling errors) compared to webcomics, that's not enough to please me anymore. Unless it's truly distracting, I pretty much don't take technical standards into account anymore, when looking for something I'd want to read.

A superhero comic can have technically good art, but I'm sorry I just cannot be interested by the default Big 3 visuals anymore. An analogy would be overloading on the same overexposed celebrity actors.

I am much more likely to be visually excited by this:
http://www.drunkduck.com/Para_Ten
Than by this:


Edit:
The other thing I've become jaded against is unrealistic, exaggerated direction.

For example Hero A would open a ranty dialog with Villain A. Villain A proceeds to blast Hero A with a laser to accentuate his argument. Hero A falls to the ground, bounces back up, gives a 1-liner, prepares to fight, but waits for Villain A to talk some more.

This still happens in superhero comics. What are we, 5? Gee can I have even less realism to go with my spandex meal? Doesn't any action contain any gravitas anymore? There is a reason my main characters didn't draw a sword until page 39, and didn't fire a gun until page 31.

GREAT list abg. Unfortunately, the other 1000 books in the gaphic novel section of Borders royally SUCKS.

Gotta agree with you on the webcomics. The unfortunate side of SO DAMNED many wannabes producing work is that 98% of it is exceedingly week. I don't think that's really a flaw however, just a consequence of having a free-for-all. Millions of people get to live their dream. It's a selfish thing for them, & fortunately, may of them find at least a small audience.

But there really is no excuse for print books. The flaw there however is with both the creators, companies, & the public who continues to pay top dollar for exceedingly sub-par work. We are to blame. If we truly wanted quality, we wouldn't pay for crap.

Later,
Chip

Ummm ... if you're talking about the everyday, run-of-the-mill soap-operas that are monthly pamphlet comics, written at the behest of editors along story-lines created by committee - nope. Can't defend those at all. Even the current in-vogue writers like Loeb are going to churn out trash when they have no personal interest in the subject and they're important enough to know they'll be paid for the product no matter how bad it is.

I prefer to wait for the TPBs. This means I'm usually a long way behind the latest thing to hit the shelves but I do have the benefit of knowing whether a particular run was well received or not when it was first launched. Of course, I still end up buying the occasional turkey (curse you Loeb and the abomination that was Superman/Batman: Supergirl!), but these are outweighed by the likes of Top 10, Identity Crisis etc.

Yeah ... I think that's about the best defence I can muster!

TitanOne
His Rogue's Gallery is the worst in comics. A psychic gorilla is his biggest nemesis.

He doesn't even "patrol" an interesting home city...Keystone City is nowhere near being like Gotham.

With raw material like that, how can he be written well?

Are you kidding? Flash has one of the most interesting Rogue's galleries out there. Granted, thematically, they're a bit of an odd mish-mash. But it's the way they've been presented over the years that really makes them. For no adequately explained reason, the writers for the Flash villains have made a point of treating them as more human than just about anyone else's villains. Did you ever see the episode of Justice League Unlimited with the Flash Museum? In that episode the Rogues really shined, and they were basically presented as they were in the comic; eccentric, but self-aware.

Also, I'd like to thank Mlai for reminding us just how great and mature his comic is compared to every other comic ever...

Aaaanyway, I get the feeling that a lot of you artist types start to feel that it's "cool" to hate superhero comics, largely because other people tell you you're supposed to. Now, I know all of us have paid real, hard-earned money for comics that have turned out to be... will I'll be polite and leave it at "shit". But if you're going to say that all comics are bad because the three you've read stinked then, well... that's just ignorant. I could list you dozens of downright unreadable webcomics, and the simple fact that they exist doesn't mean that magically all webcomics are horrible.

Admittedly, odds on a mainstream mask n' spandex commic being of the same quality as the Vertigo stuff is pretty low, but that doesn't mean they're all automatically deplorable. Here's some superhero comics that are just fine reads:

The Ultimates 1 & 2 (kinda jumped the shark when they switched to new writers for 3)
Thunderbolts
Just about anything Swamp Thing (though it's basically a Vertigo-exclusive now...)
Ultimate Spider-Man is a good read, though sometimes the plot is a bit forced. In general Bendis just writes comics that are fun to read, though rarely anything that will "rock your world"
Nextwave: Agents of HATE - I cannot stress this one enough. This is one of the greatest things Marvel has done in years.
Cable and Deadpool is a lot of fun when the series focuses on Deadpool; kinda forced and Emo when it focuses on Cable.
She-Hulk is a surprisingly fun and quirky comic.
Invincible, oddly enough form Image (known for over-the-top everything) is beautifually down to earth and has a great sense of style.
Similar to Deadpool, basically anything with Lobo in it gets a huge boost; assuming the writer doesn't try to take him seriously.

Inkmonkey
Aaaanyway, I get the feeling that a lot of you artist types start to feel that it's "cool" to hate superhero comics, largely because other people tell you you're supposed to. Now, I know all of us have paid real, hard-earned money for comics that have turned out to be... will I'll be polite and leave it at "shit". But if you're going to say that all comics are bad because the three you've read stinked then, well... that's just ignorant. I could list you dozens of downright unreadable webcomics, and the simple fact that they exist doesn't mean that magically all webcomics are horrible.

Admittedly, odds on a mainstream mask n' spandex commic being of the same quality as the Vertigo stuff is pretty low, but that doesn't mean they're all automatically deplorable. Here's some superhero comics that are just fine reads:

I'm with Inkmonkey here. There are a lot of good print comics out there, it just may take a little effort to find them. Sick of heroes dying and coming back all the time? Read Exiles or GLA. (Great Lakes Avengers. Funny, plus they make some valid points about the superhero genre.) Fables is usually pretty well done, as are the comics that Inkmonkey and angry_black_guy put up.

c3ink
GREAT list abg. Unfortunately, the other 1000 books in the gaphic novel section of Borders royally SUCKS.

This can also be said about web comics. For every good one, there's a hundred sonic/megaman sprite comics or something of that ilk.

I consider myself more of a writer than an artist. And I could give a rip what's "cool".

MOST superhero books SUCK! because they do. They're poorly conceived, porrly executed excuses for marketing.

While you mentioned some fun books, with the exception of the first 3 or 4, the others suffer from the same anti-mortality, no peril problem. Even Ultimate Spiderman, which actually is a fun read suffers from mainstream-flu. You KNOW the kid won't die, so he can REALLY be in any peril. Luckily, his supporting cast is more expendable, so you do get some tension there.

And Swamp Thing hasn't been worth a fig since Moore left. Other writers have tried, but they haven't been able to great a character & plot with a quarter of the depth said book had during Moore's run.

The Ultimates was quite fun.

Thunderbolts works because Ellis can kill almost any of the characters, so there really is a since of danger.

Next was was funny, but Giffen already did it funnier in his Justice League companion book, ages ago.

Invincible is VERY inconsistant. It sorta feels like we're watching Kirkman get himself off. If you want solid Kirkman, I'd reccommend Walking Dead, or his original Brit work.

The other books are definitely suffering from the mainstream flu. While they may be well-written & fun, they can't achieve any real degree of tension because they can't die.

Later,
Chip

Hey Inkmonkey, thanks so much for the uninvited sarcasm. Maybe you forget to mention I posted a link to a comic not my own? If you read my numerous posts on this forum, you should notice that when I mention DD webcomics, 95% of the time it's in praise of other ppl's work and trying hard to call forumers' attention to it. I can't use contextual examples now?

*Edited to contain less vitriolic drama... This new forum color scheme is still grating on me.*

Whoa, I'm with mlai here. Mod or not, you were out of line, Inkmonkey.

And, while heroes do die in both books, magicmaker, both books are also very hit & miss (more often "miss").

Later,
Chip

I began to dislike a lot of the super hero stuff that's out there in the mainstream, so I decided to just do it MY way, and turn the genre on it's head a little. Beyond tooting my own horn and saying people should give Hero By night a try, I HIGHLY suggest anything by Robert Kirkman: Invincible, Walking Dead, Wolfman... there are plenty of great comics out there.

While webcomics rock, I gotta say, there's something very nice about having your own work in hardcover collections too. And I still enjoy "floppy" single issues as well. Something nostalgic about those- while the big trades are nice, it's also nice to have little snack packages of your favorite creators, given to you more often.

The only thing I do like about the floppy single issues is that, because Big 3 series are not creator-dependent and therefore change artists (something I despise), I can buy random issues of whatever-it-is based purely on whether or not I like the artist/writer.

As in, I wouldn't have to spend $18 to buy an entire TPB just for 23 pages in it that's drawn by someone I like. God knows I've paid more for less, in the past.

there are more than a bunch of great comic books and great writers even at Barnes and Nobles. Actaully a lot of the companies are printing some really good comics. Read some recent comics

Criminal-good crime stories
Fell-great detective stories
Captain America-it's a spy book, really with un-retcon of Cap their's no need to really read about the Ultimate Cap.
New Frontier-an easy way to get into the DC universe.
American Way -smart writing about superheroes being used as propaganda
The Spirit -Darwyn Cookes run was great, good art decent writing
The Ultimates 1 was really good Ultimates 2 had a terrible ending.
Invincible is a fun silly superhero book with some great moments
Jonah Hex messed up western with some horror some revenge all in a bunch of one shots
DMZ-US' second civil war, depressing strong writing with emotions about living in a war zone and not actually about fighting.
Pride of Baghdad-sad tales about lions running around Iraq during the US invasion
The Exterminators-Tony Moore normally does the art and it's really about a bunch of exterminators and the characters are interesting.
Infinite Horizon-Odessey set in modern times.
The Immortal Iron Fist-kung fu story and they got rid of the stupid costume for a while.
The Walking Dead-it's more about the characters than the fact there are zombies.
We3-animals in robotic suits trying to go home, also they kill alot of people. By Grant Morrision but it is much easier to read.
Five Fists of Science-funny silly steam punk book By Matt Fraction. About Tesla and Twain fighting Thomas Edision and Cthulhu.
Mouse Guard-about mice that lead paths and keep the order beautiful art from David Petersen
The Hellboy related books are great fun.
Northwest Passage about explorers in Canada something different, which Oni Press is really good at printing.

So I don't know about you but there's a lot of great books out there, and I have a bunch of other series I need to try I don't know why you can't seem to find any of them because I see a bunch, and they do have strong writers.

its funny reading all that you guys talk about. ^^

first, I dont read super hero comics cause I just never got into them so my point of view is what little manga and other japanese style comics I get.

My biggist thing is that the 'good stuff' get little to no publicity so it takes me for ever to find them online and buy them. Almost none of the manga I want is in stores and Im not even going to start on indie comics. Because of this, very little of whats out there is realy in the stores and if I dont know about them then how do I 'look for something invisible' ?

It pisses me off the most that because 1 thing made it big that everything else should follow. I dont know where they got the idea that 'all' of us is stupid and will eat the same bland thing over and over again but then again...

Im a sucker for magical girls... ^^

really the indy comics are really getting the short end of the stick. They always will which sucks there are so many good comics outside of the major big 2 companies, because it's part of the big 2 Vertigo books are treated alot better. Which reminds me...need to find Scalped and can't wait for Northlanders trade. Yeah also there are some good mangas out there...even though I haven't bought any in a long time. I want to the Project X challenge series.