dueeast
I still wish we could have a discussion about the positive aspects of what I call REAL Christians or real Christianity, and that would be difficult for those who have never really encountered one.

Please believe me, possibly the biggest bane of my existence is so-called Christians who don't live what they're taught (hypocrites) or who have been taught wrong by people/ministers/priests with agendas that are contrary to Jesus' teachings. In both cases, people get hurt and who gets the blame? All Christians, because of the misguided actions of some.

and there's why usually it boils down to an argument. those "so-called" christians are REAL christians, you just don't like their personal expression of your beliefs.

when non-christians have a problem with the religion it's because of these whack-jobs using hypocrocy to justify being utter tyrants with their beliefs And the otherwise agreeable people that do nothing to make them stop because they sharing a religion.

we complain to the whack-jobs all the time, but they don't care because we're "heathens" or something. you're christian and you disapprove of their actions too? Great! how about you let them know that and do something about them! they're effectively causing this trouble in your name, and if you don't go out and say "hold on, i didn't approve of this crap!" people are going to align their actions with you, too.

i still field questions on why the US voted for bush twice and hasn't given up the "war on terror". i never voted for him, i told everyone i knew not to vote for him, a called pretty much every one of his ideas shit at great length, but because i happen to be american it's assumed i somehow agree with americas choices during the eight years dubya stupid-tourture.

El Cid
I think I probably read more pro-Christian posts than critical ones.

One question. Where?

Orin J Master
because i happen to be american it's assumed i somehow agree with americas choices during the eight years dubya stupid-tourture.

Another one question. By whom?

No, they are not, Orin. That would probably roll off into another conversation/debate. You see them all in one light...

In addition, you are making a lot of assumptions. Most of those "whack jobs" I will never meet, but I do speak out against hypocrisy. I don't ignore it and I don't accept it. And neither you nor I know who has or hasn't stood up to them/stood up for what's right.

Orin J Master

dueeast
I still wish we could have a discussion about the positive aspects of what I call REAL Christians or real Christianity, and that would be difficult for those who have never really encountered one.

Please believe me, possibly the biggest bane of my existence is so-called Christians who don't live what they're taught (hypocrites) or who have been taught wrong by people/ministers/priests with agendas that are contrary to Jesus' teachings. In both cases, people get hurt and who gets the blame? All Christians, because of the misguided actions of some.

and there's why usually it boils down to an argument. those "so-called" christians are REAL christians, you just don't like their personal expression of your beliefs.

when non-christians have a problem with the religion it's because of these whack-jobs using hypocrocy to justify being utter tyrants with their beliefs And the otherwise agreeable people that do nothing to make them stop because they sharing a religion.

we complain to the whack-jobs all the time, but they don't care because we're "heathens" or something. you're christian and you disapprove of their actions too? Great! how about you let them know that and do something about them! they're effectively causing this trouble in your name, and if you don't go out and say "hold on, i didn't approve of this crap!" people are going to align their actions with you, too.

i still field questions on why the US voted for bush twice and hasn't given up the "war on terror". i never voted for him, i told everyone i knew not to vote for him, a called pretty much every one of his ideas shit at great length, but because i happen to be american it's assumed i somehow agree with americas choices during the eight years dubya stupid-tourture.

Puff_Of_Smoke

El Cid
I think I probably read more pro-Christian posts than critical ones.

One question. Where?

Here, actually. I went back and checked the thread I was referring to ("My Perspective on Christianity," or somesuch) and out of 30 posts I counted 15 pro-Christianity comments by 6 pro-Christian forum members, compared to 12 anti-Christian posts made by 6 vocal heathens, along with three comments that were off-topic. In this Thread, out of 33 posts, I've read 12 pro-Christian posts made by 8 pro-Christian forum members, compared to three anti-Christian posts. In addition, there were 18 posts which took no apparent side by six forum members whose affiliations I could not determine. Five of the posters appear to have issues with Christianity judging from posts they've made elsewhere, but not all of their comments here could be regarded as such, which is why I only marked three comments as explicitly critical of the Faith. In both cases, by my count, the scales were tipped in favor of the faithful, not against them, and most certainly not overwhelmingly against them (even if the anti-Christian posts were more substantive **wink! kidding!**).

I think it was already brought up, but from looking at some of the threads posted here, I'd have to say that you really can't expect a thread asking why Christians favor torture and shelter pedophiles to go anywhere good. If somebody started a topic that was positive to begin with, I'd at least hope it would have a good chance of not being derailed by fire-bombers.

yeah, just yesterday I was on Bungie.net forums and one of the threads broke into religious debate and in that case I, the atheist, got bashed for my beliefs. so apparently there are more atheists making comics as apposed to playing Halo 3. in, I'm sure, every forum on the web, if you try to strike up a civilized religious debate there will be more of these beliefs than there are of those. I doubt anywhere there will be a 50% divide. And for me, I find it quite relieving to have a forum page with more Atheists than people of god in it because out of the other forums I've been to, I was outnumbered in religious debate.

So let me see if I'm getting the gist of this correctly...

Because in other places, either in real life or somewhere else on the internet, atheists from this forum have run into rude people who claim to be religious/Christian, who also outnumber them in those places, that justifies the atheists coming here to the Drunk Duck Debate and Discussion forum and behaving just like the people you despise -- because at least it's atheists/nonbelievers in the majority here? You get to turn the tables, have the advantage -- be the bully?

I'm not even sure how to express how I feel about that.

I was hoping it might be possible to use this discussion to attempt to come up with a solution promoting more tolerance both ways...so believers could have a place in this forum along with nonbelievers, so that all their voices could be allowed without constant ridicule. But it seems too many people are using this forum for their own free private counseling/justification sessions, lumping in anyone claiming to be a Christian/believer with the absolute worst drecks of society who have ever abused anyone using God's name. That's what I see from all the subject lines and all the posts, and that's really quite disappointing.

I wish you all well, I truly do. But I find what this forum has become very sad and I can't be a part of it anymore. It's unhealthy for me personally.

Best Wishes,
Allen aka Due East

I would have to agree with dueeast, Orin.

you see this sort of thing in ALL types of groups.

take feminism, for instance. it's been blamed for SO MANY evils that it was not responsible for.

Say you enter a room full of 50 feminists. 49 of those women are your normal, everyday modern women who are actually rather nice people. but the last one is the fanatic feminist-- a woman who only "became a part" of the feminist group because it was the group that she felt that it would be the easiest to use as an vehicle to take out her hatred on men. She's loud, abrasive, and just downright sexist.

the other feminists, who outnumber this crazy fem-nazi, are all embarrassed by her appalling behavior and they do their best to shut her up quickly as they can without making an scene. But their attempts to stop her from sprouting crap, only seems to make her even more louder and her verbal assaults on the evils of men even more worse.

anybody else in that room who isn't an feminist, is then going to remember that one man-hater more than they will remember the rest of the 49 feminists....
and since she sticks out in their minds more... they're going to assume that any woman who's nice, reasonable, non-sexist etc... isn't a feminist, even though they are.

replace those people with 50 Christians, and you got the same thing happening.

Being an Feminist myself, It really burns my buns when an extremist ruins it for the rest of us.

So I can definitely see where Dueeast is coming from.

in my last post here, I talked about how I was verbally harassed by fundie christians because I didn't fit thier cookie cutter image of what a good person was.

I spoke about that as a way to clarfiy how some people could have horrible experiences that lead them to venting it out over online forums.

But what I didn't talk about was that it took me a long time to get over my resentment... but what really helped was making friends in college who just happened to be christian.

At first, I didn't even know that they were Christians. they didn't tell me for a long time mainly because they didn't feel the need to sprout that they were Christians at every turn. They were just regular people.. very friendly, and didn't force their beliefs down anybody's throats. and most importantly, they didn't act like total jackasses when they found out that I was an Agonstic rather than an christain.

So when I found out they were christian, I was somewhat shocked because they didn't do any of the following up above that an crazy fundie would had done. My reaction was something like this: "Huh, so there are actually christains who can be NORMAL people!"

it also helped me when I was studying how the Media works... in the end the News and other forms of media loves sensationalism-- and that induces searching for those crazy fundamentalists, femi-nazis, and all the bad parts of every group out there.

They don't want normal Christians, normal feminists, etc speaking out against all those extremists on public news and in other media out there because that;s not what makes money. After all, that's just TOO normal. that doesn't grab enough attention according to the news.

to them, outrage sells more news.

Thats' why the news and the like is often crock full of negativity.

I think that a positive spiritual discussion can survive if all the sides involved keep in mind that we are not discussing people, but ideas, that we are not masters of the truth, both sides (atheism or Religion) could be wrong, and we keep some good but not TO offensive sense of humor...

I mean, the second that we are tempted to yell "You religious sheep" or "godless baby-eater", we should just stay away from the keyboard, breath and think that when we do that, we are not better than the fanatic douches that we are supposed fight...

If the anger is to big, just play some Faith Fighter (why the hell isn't Xenu a playable character? and where is the Flying Spaghetti Monster?) and came back to talk in a civilized way...

dueeast
So let me see if I'm getting the gist of this correctly...

Because in other places, either in real life or somewhere else on the internet, atheists from this forum have run into rude people who claim to be religious/Christian, who also outnumber them in those places, that justifies the atheists coming here to the Drunk Duck Debate and Discussion forum and behaving just like the people you despise -- because at least it's atheists/nonbelievers in the majority here? You get to turn the tables, have the advantage -- be the bully?

First of all, I really don't believe atheists are any more bullying than Christians on the internet. I think the internet is a medium that is less conducive to civil discussions. If you go to a stranger's house, or if a stranger comes to yours, and you two start talking about religion, I think the conversation would go very differently than if those same two people talk on the internet. Not only do people tend to be more civil when looking someone in the eye, but it's also easy to become defensive about what someone wrote when you don't have the additional nonverbal cues we have in face-to-face conversations (c'mon, how many times have you sent an email or IM that was interpreted differently than how you intended it?). So people have to be extra-vigilant about being civil on the internet, and honestly some people don't.

Which bring me to the next point; it only takes one or two troublemakers to poison the entire discussion. I can't tell you how many forum discussions I've tried to have, but then other people barge into it and start insulting each other, and the whole thing degrades into a big mess. I've been rather pleased with the forum boards here on DD because I don't think that happens here near to the extent that it happens in some other forums.

I also think that the anonymity of the internet that leads to less civility, on the other hand, does lead to a bit more honesty. I've had religious conversations face-to-face where I could tell someone was thinking that I was going to hell, and I'd even ask them about it directly, and they couldn't really say it to my face. And I myself know that I hold back about how people don't read the Bible more critically when discussing it in person. That holding back is what helps keep the conversation civil. But it's also a little disingenuous. The internet is a little TOO genuous, of course. :) But people will tell you what they think, that's for sure.

In the end, I don't think internet conversations change anyone's minds very often, if ever. But I will say that I have learned quite a bit from past discussions. So I hope you will continue to troll and read and reply when you feel like it.

ParkerFarker
Bungie.net forums

Now, really.

All that you find there are retarded halo fanboys and the rare marathon fan. Most of them are blind catholics. You honestly expect them to be tolerant of anything?

It's true that in most if not all internet discussion groups people from opposite extremes will clash. In that Bungie forum example, it just so happens to be that the christian extremest percentage outnumbers the atheist extremest while it seems to be the reverse around here. Trust me. Nobody is out there to get you. People aren't flocking to this site to get their revenge because they got trampled by religious posters. Making assumptions like that is a very negative generalization towards all atheists, painting them as some immature dicks. Wasn't the initial complaint that all Christians were being generalized in a negative way. Let's not try to stupe to that level.

Hiding behind the internet allows people to see the best and worst of us. Here we don't have to worry that much about our reputation. Our true name is hidden. That fact empowers you and makes you display your true colors.

I fully agree that annoying self righteous a-holes exist in all corners of every group. I have met many Christians who can't be described as very nice and I personally know a 'fanatical' atheist who loves nothing more then to expose how "ignorant and idiotic a man of faith is for clinging on to his primitive superstitions and backwater religion (his words, not mine)". He doesn't hide behind a server while doing so either. Oh no. He does it straight to your face. I shudder the thought of how he behaves in a forum.

Then again, I think he behaves that way because he has a very bad history with christian extremists so maybe you are on to something, Dueeast.

dueeast
Based on my experience and briefly glancing at the most recent list of topics and the generally typical answers, which are almost always by the same exact people, I would submit, in a word: NO.

I'm glad for the occasional nice/positive word by Hawk or Ozoneocean, etc. but this is no longer a debate forum, not really. It may as well be re-titled "The Christianity/God/Religion Hate Club." That's what it's devolved (pardon the pun) into.

I've watched over the last couple of years as the conversation tactics have shifted from lively debate to overwhelm by sheer numbers to a crowd of the same perspective debating what they already believe. It's silly and this is why I participate less and less in any part of this forum. I don't need the aggravation or disappointment when I check in to see what's going on.

It would actually be interesting if someone could have a positive conversation on a spiritual/God/Christianity-based topic and those people not get ripped to shreds by those who don't believe in a deity or don't care for religion. I'd like to see it happen. I rarely get jaded by things but this forum is an exception...

Religion in all fairness is a hot button issue. There are so many contradictions in the bible, in religious text and history, and so many arguments that can be made in favor and against the very concept of a higher power, that it's easy to go off the deep end and get riled up over things. It's not a topic that is just a topic to some people, if that makes sense.

I think faith is a very positive thing to have. If human beings cannot look past themselves then we become greedy, arrogant, and self absorbed. While there may be or may not be a God, a firm belief in something - anything - beyond the here and now is healthy both for the mind and the soul. Religion may cause issues, it does set a standard by which you practice faith, but if you think for a moment, really think, that ridding the world of organized faith will put an end to wars, bickering, and differing ignorant opinions, then you would be wrong. So long as humans exist, there will be petty and important squabbling.

So thar's my two cents. If you want to discuss/debate religion with someone I'm always looking for a partner. Regligious studies are a hobby of mine, and I'm utterly facinated by the many aspects of the mythology surrounding ancient history. Having someone who is capable of holding a conversation with me about it, and correcting any mistaken view points I might have would be a breath of fresh air that I'm in desperate need of.

Religion IS a hot button issue, but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed with respect and understanding. I know you're not implying otherwise, but I think that's the essence of dueeast's post. It's not wrong to believe in a god, and those who do shouldn't be arbitrarily grouped in with wackos and terrorists.

riddle me this hawk, what constitutes disrespecting someone's religion? muslims are taught to take anything even slightly critical as an insult to their faith, and part of the debate is that those of us that don't believe it want to ask questions that the religion considers inaproprite.

i mean, i still want to know why they're sure that their view of there being just the one god is true, and the argument is that "we just believe it" which is a cop out and a bit insulting to me. we're offending them if we press on their god being false, but are they not being offensive by refusing to consider both sides of the issue?

also due east, one last time: those of us who aren't christians don't really split hairs on the types of christians. you read from the same books and believe in the same gods, having different interpetitions of all that doesn't mean much if you're not in any of the groups. it's like sports fans. there's steeler fans and raider fans and packer fans and to them they're all entirely different, but to someone that doesn't care about football they're all just football fans.

..i think those are all football teams.

Orin J Master
riddle me this hawk, what constitutes disrespecting someone's religion?

Well, just off the top of my head, Mr Lostman telling Black Kitty her beliefs were silly and implying that she had nothing to subsist off of except Pascal's Wager.

Then later when he tells isukun his beliefs are ridiculous.

Skullbie titling a topic, "Pedophiles- when religion shelters the sickest bastards on earth" when she knows good and well it's not all religion that is responsible for what the Catholics did.

And you weren't around when Vindibudd was here, but it got to the point where a few people just started treating him like he was stupid for holding so strongly to his beliefs. He came off closed-minded sometimes, but didn't deserve the mocking he got.

Orin J Master
i mean, i still want to know why they're sure that their view of there being just the one god is true, and the argument is that "we just believe it" which is a cop out and a bit insulting to me. we're offending them if we press on their god being false, but are they not being offensive by refusing to consider both sides of the issue?

You're trying to debate spirituality without accounting for spirituality, as if spirituality was based off of science. It's not. You're expecting people whose belief system functions in a different format to convert to yours before debating.

A person's reason for having beliefs can be a very personal thing to them, so don't expect them to just spill their guts when questioned like that... especially given some peoples' eagerness to disprove it.

Orin J Master
also due east, one last time: those of us who aren't christians don't really split hairs on the types of christians.

Then you're not ready to debate Christianity.

Hawk
Religion IS a hot button issue, but that doesn't mean it can't be discussed with respect and understanding. I know you're not implying otherwise, but I think that's the essence of dueeast's post. It's not wrong to believe in a god, and those who do shouldn't be arbitrarily grouped in with wackos and terrorists.

Of course not. I'm merely implying that it's easier to become upset about religion than it is over - lets say - politics. It's much more near to people's hearts. So it's not bad to have passion about it.

I agree with you completely.

My personal belief is that faith is good, it's good to have faith in something. And if you try to say "well organizing that faith causes war and creates terror" than you arent thinking clearly. War and terror would exist with or without a belief in God.

I suppose I did a bad job of wording that post. I'm not a graceful as some people when it comes to detailing my point. :D

No, your post was actually quite good and one I strongly agreed with. I was just extrapolating upon it when I posted afterward. Come to think of it, my post was the more confusing one.

Hawk
No, your post was actually quite good and one I strongly agreed with. I was just extrapolating upon it when I posted afterward. Come to think of it, my post was the more confusing one.

Well then lets just both agree that we're awesome and call it a day?

Hawk

Orin J Master
also due east, one last time: those of us who aren't christians don't really split hairs on the types of christians.

Then you're not ready to debate Christianity.

i, ah...don't suppose you're care to elaborate as to the whys of that, would you?

i don't think you're trying to argue "if you're not one of us, you don't get to criticise us", but by itself, it does kind of infer that....

Hopefully the bluntness of that last sentence didn't come off as rude... if it did, I apologize. What I mean to say is, I wouldn't get into a debate about North Americans vs. South Americans if I thought all South Americans were Brazilian. I think the fact that Christianity has such varying beliefs cannot be ignored in a debate... Afterall, a Catholic is going to debate differently with you than a Protestant or a Jehova's Witness would.

I'm sorry, I know it's hard to keep all the variations straight, and that's what makes it a tough subject. Even a lot of devout Christians don't exactly know what key differences separate the different denominations. But it's important to know that they are different and can't be subject to generalizations or held to blame for something one sect has done.

Not that I'm Hawk but I think the whole idea is that if you're not interested in the details, then you're not really ready to discuss the details.

There is a reason why there are different names for different branches of Christianity. A Catholic is not a Protestant or a Baptist. You cannot assume they are all the same just because they all believe in God. If you insist on treating them all the same then you'll never get a satisfactory answer to anything.

It is like suggesting oranges, apples, and pears are the same. Yes they're all fruits but really they're not the same thing.

Edit: When I was typing Hawk's reply wasn't there so uh, yeah~ I am totally leaving this here.

Here's a positive spiritual topic for you.

ALL OF US ARE CONSCIOUSNESS AND REALITY IS MADE OF VIBRATION/ENERGY

regardless of how you look at it, its the same thing.

The bible says in Genesis that God created light first. (Genesis 1:3)

Why light? Why not the sun? Where did the light come from? What is the scientific definition of light?

Light is energy.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/light2.htm

the wave is made up of energy traveling through the water. If a wave moves across a pool from left to right, this does not mean that the water on the left side of the pool is moving to the right side of the pool. The water has actually stayed about where it was. It is the wave that has moved. When you move your hand through a filled bathtub, you make a wave, because you are putting your energy into the water. The energy travels through the water in the form of the wave.

Also, what is the scientific explanation of the "miracles" of Jesus?

How do you turn water into wine?

Water:


Wine:


There's H(hydrogen), O(oxygen), and C(carbon). All of them are gases but how can these three elements somehow make water and wine?

What is it in the atoms that allow them to become such and such?

Jesus used his spiritual force (aka energy, chi) in order to manipulate the water in a sub-atomic level. Thus, transforming the water into wine. Jesus is an advanced spiritual being who came to planet earth in order to raise the spiritual awareness of the planet. He can't be the 30 something male thats depicted in the religious artworks. He's way older than that and he probably lived a million lives in other planets as well.


Anyway, the connection between spirituality and science is a broad subject.

http://www.redicecreations.com/connections/more/holographicrealityspritsci.html

Orin J Master

Hawk

Orin J Master
also due east, one last time: those of us who aren't christians don't really split hairs on the types of christians.

Then you're not ready to debate Christianity.

i, ah...don't suppose you're care to elaborate as to the whys of that, would you?

Ignoring relevant keys facts in any debate makes you ignorant and not ready to have that debate. It's Debating 101.

megan_rose

Orin J Master

Hawk

Orin J Master
also due east, one last time: those of us who aren't christians don't really split hairs on the types of christians.

Then you're not ready to debate Christianity.

i, ah...don't suppose you're care to elaborate as to the whys of that, would you?

Ignoring relevant keys facts in any debate makes you ignorant and not ready to have that debate. It's Debating 101.

i agree with your statement (and wish i could put it in my sig on several other forums i lurk on without losing context) but i have to disagree that the different types of christianity are relevant here.

go look through the original poster's comments. at no point is any sect of christianity mentioned, just that she's christian. heck once i ask about the less savory bits of christianity her defense was simply they're not "true christians", which i must admit is a defense i'd love to use the next time i try to get a D&D group started and meeting in the library.

how exactly can i be required to focus on one specific sect if it's not explained which sect we're to talk about? do i guess? do i act like an utter jerk and insist that we're talking about whichever groups has done the worst thing recently? at no point did this thread approach the topic of christianity any closer than, well..."christianity".

besides, i thought this thread was about "why people are negative towards christianity", and most who aren't christians and tend to do most of the grumbling, as i said , don't really split hairs. their getting lumped together, both by the pro- and con- side when it suits them is an important detail to understand why they do it.

...man, i wish i weren't so wordy sometimes. i like your concise responses better.

TheMidge28
it all boils down to one word: Respect.
Respect for others POV/Beliefs.
If there is no respect for the other posters POV then it not going to be a healthy discussion or debate.
This goes for religious folk towards non-religious folk's beliefs or worldview.
and of course vice versa.

If you are set and feel strongly about your POV then one should respect that others feel the same and in doing so put your feelings on a shelf knowing where you stand and allow for the consideration of this other perspective.

I blame the newer youth for the lack of respect.

It's truly amazing to see the youth of these generations slowly deteriorate, it also makes you sick to your stomach. No one is raising their kids to earn and give respect. not to mention with the uprising of atheism and a one track mind is rapidly coming forth.

I'm no atheist, I hate to consider myself so. I'm simply a non-religious non-believer. There is completely no need to bash someone over their religion POV and it's a wasteless effort.

I'm new to the cite. But agree with you fully. Any internet website that people can comment on (youtube is a big example) there seems to be this hate for spirituality and Christianity and a reverse hate on the people who are so against it. When describing my religious veiws, I tend to lean away from the word "Athiest" because there are so many people that call themselves this as some excuse just to hate on religion. When many major religions don't have a major focus on a higer power. I like to respect and learn about religion, so I can properly put down misconceptions about them.

Monstro
I blame the newer youth for the lack of respect.

It's truly amazing to see the youth of these generations slowly deteriorate, it also makes you sick to your stomach. No one is raising their kids to earn and give respect. not to mention with the uprising of atheism and a one track mind is rapidly coming forth.

You have no idea how much I hate my generation for that very reason :\

Monstro
It's truly amazing to see the youth of these generations slowly deteriorate, it also makes you sick to your stomach. No one is raising their kids to earn and give respect. not to mention with the uprising of atheism and a one track mind is rapidly coming forth.

don't blame atheism, blame the devaluing of introspection. people are moving too fast to consider what they're actually doing in the long run and how it might affect them, so they assume they're automaticaly right rather than look like they're not.

it's in every religion too, they just get better window dressing for running around like morons if they do it.

also, the overarcing need to market things as better in corporate markets. i'm pretty sure this is the consumer generation.....

It's a bit unfair to claim that all atheists are bashing people for their religious beliefs.

Many of us are guilty of attacking ALL believers of certain faiths simply because some of their members are fanatics/terrorists/creationists/etc, just like you are now guilty of attacking ALL atheists. Atheism is simply the conscious decision of abolishing the existence of God/s, religion and superstition. By saying you don't believe in a higher power, afterlife or similar concepts, you're basically admitting that you're an atheist.

In every group you'll find obnoxious and controlling people similar to the religious fanatics who have to convert everyone to their faith in order to save their soul. In atheism, these people take the form of self righteous know-it-all's who laugh in your face when you say that you believe in God.

I'm very tolerant of religion as a concept.

...But I have to be honest and say that I can't stand to be in the same room as a fanatic. I just can't :(