I'm sure I'm not alone in BL comic creators in saying that we get a bit of a bad press sometimes if not an awful lot of malice directed towards our work... Why don't you just do straight comics? Why do your boys look like girls? Why waste your time/effort/talent on that stuff and draw something worthwhile? Quite recently I got a nice comment on my comic kindly telling me that -

Someone
fags r retard

Now... I could have taken the time to explain to that person how many things they did wrong in that sentence but I have better things to do... like draw my fag comics. *eyeroll* And also recently somewhere I read that -

Someone
People who make those boy+boy love stories should die in a fire.

I mean, you've got to take it with a pinch of salt... XD The comment wasn't directed at me but it just made me think, does any other comic genre get this sort of shit? I mean, I at least know busty weight-gain comics are disliked just about as much as BL... XD; And sprite comics aren't liked much either... But seriously, just because a comic has a certain thing like BL or a fetish or is executed in a way that many people perceive as lazy does it immediately make it less worthy of someone's respect? Does it mean it's made with any less effort and love?

What can a comicker do to earn your respect and what can they do to lose it? Are there any sorts of comic that you just won't read because of your preconceptions of what the genre/themes/art style entail? Is there anything that can just pop up in a comic to make you totally switch off from it and cause you to lose all respect for the author?

This isn't a tread for bashing the sorts of comics you hate nor is it just focussed on BL (though some discussion of people's general thoughts on BL would be nice)~ I'm talking about all sorts of comics. Try and explain WHY you don't respect certain things in comics and tell us what you DO respect.

But really, I'm just trying to see if there is anything that gets even more ang0r directed towards it than BL comics. ^^; Do people just see BL as some sort of cop-out get-popular-quick type thing not worthy of respect or something? Because, as far as I can see, people outside the fandom seem to think that way. D:

Personally my dislike for shounen-ai springs mainly from the fangirls. It's like a sure-fire way to get tonnes of readers without needing to make a good comic. This isn't to say that there aren't any good shounen-ai or yaoi comics, your comic is an obvious example of a very well drawn and excecuted example of the genre. Still, I do tend to roll my eyes when I see 'shounen ai!' in title descriptions because so many have 2d cliched characters who look pretty and act angsty then fall in love without any kind of logical reasoning or character development. I think it's disrespectful to real homosexual people to depict them as just 'bishies' who are there to oggle and go 'oh, they're sooo sweet!'

Shounen-ai comes with a guaranteed fanbase of shounen-ai readers. Even if the comic is pretty badly drawn and written, you can guarantee faves by making it. I've even met girls who ONLY read shounen-ai comics and have no interest in anything else! As a non-shounen-ai manga artist, I've always been frustrated by the fact that comics with worse art, plot and characters have done better just by having pretty boys in love, than really awesome comics with competant art that address issues, tell great stories and develop really deep, likable characters. What's worse, if you say you dislike shounen-ai, people just tell you you're homophobic! The fangirls all act like they're so marginalised, when the truth is, you go to any anime convention, you'll find if you're a female manga artist or fan who doesn't read shounen-ai (I read stuff with shounen-ai IN it, like Clamp stuff and Saiyuki, I just avoid comics which have it as their main genre), you're in a serious minority!
It's pretty much the same deal as sprites. It comes with guaranteed fans, but also some abuse. In fact, it's probably not nearly as badly disrespected as sprites are.

Is it the least respected?

In a word: yes.

This is not based on personal opinion. Personally, I don't care what you write. This is based on observations.

Namely, the observations of other peoples opinions.

And that "die in a fire" line was pretty harsh. I think I actually saw that line somewhere.

I think sprites take the title for "least respected comic genre". =p I think if you ask a roomful of random people, more people are going to list sprite comics as a genre they don't care for or respect.

I don't particularly like comics that have no point except "look, these two extremely feminine looking boys are gay! They're gay! Read the comic because they're gay!" which is what a loooot of shounen ai comics seem to fall under. If there's a real story, and two characters happen to be gay during the course of it, that's fine. I think RC falls under the latter - but of course, a lot of people are going to just open the comic and see two gay main characters and assume the worst. It's just something you'll need to live with, because you can't convince some people otherwise.

But like Darth said, so many people make shounen ai/yaoi comics just because it's an easy ticket to popularity (especially on a site like smackjeeves, I've found), and just like a comic in which the focus is giant boobs or popular sprites or what have you, people are going to look down on it.

That "die in a fire" comment is hilarious :)
Probably how it's really intended.

I'd say a lot of people dislike boy love because they either find it a bit trite and cliche, or they're quite homophobic. But then there are a helluva lot of girls out there that LOVE to read boylove comics! A LOT! So to say that it's least respected would be wrong.

Sprite comics are less respected because although a lot of people do them and even read them, most of their fanbase comes from people who probably do sprite comics themselves anyway, or want to. --I'm not saying I don't respect sprite comics (I don't care what style you choose), but I know that most people who do all the other styles regard sprites the least.

Sprite comics definitely get the title of "Least Respected" from me.

I can say I respect a BL comic if it's drawn/colored well.

Doesn't mean I'll read it, though. I admit I'm probably being too biased, but like silentkitty said, I had Nadya on SmackJeeves and got little to no recognition (not even in the form of people looking at my work). The BL comics, however, could get up to 300 fans with only 12 comics. I probably am being a bigot, but I dislike that some of these comics are centered purely around romances with stories that happen in between wet and sweaty boff scenes.

Maybe someone can answer this for me- I've been wondering, do BL comics run on a different criteria than, say, the action or fantasy genre? I mean, what are these readers looking for?

Do I like shounen-ai and yaoi? Sure, I own quite a bit of shounen-ai and yaoi manga. Do I like shounen-ai and yaoi webcomics? 99% of the time, yes. Am I a hypocrite? I think not.

I don't like shounen-ai webcomics because 1. a lot of them do not put a lot of effort into their art and story. It's like they want to fit into a certain mold. The art is at best generic and the storys are ones that have been seen before, except different names. 2. The fanbase is annoying. Sure, I like shounen-ai and yaoi, but I don't have to applying it to everything I create. Also, it's okay for someone to not be into it. A lot of fan girls get overly defensive. When someone says "I can't stand yaoi/shounen-ai/shota/whatever" they automatically do "OMGzzz!111! Homophobe!!11!! >_<". That's not cool. There are some genres I don't like, like fantasy. You don't have to get so riled up about it. 3. I believe that some people make shounen-ai webcomics because they "sell". Not matter how below par the art and story is, people will still read them because there is a boy kissing a boy.

So yeah, shounen-ai and yaoi webcomics usually get a bad rap. But this didn't come out of anywhere; I think some of the dislike was earned. But I am NOT saying that these artist should be insulted. I'm just saying that it's a *really* cliche genre.

As for sprite comics. I can't really respect them the way I do other comics. It's not that sprite comic makers are not putting any effort into what they do, it's just that I believe comics are ment to be drawn.

I can respect any comic that has thought and effort put into it. I don't respect any comic done simply the cater to a certain niche without putting any effort or heart into it. It's usually pretty easy to tell the difference, but some good comics will get a bad rap because they fall into a niche-y genre.

I don't read many comics at all. I don't think I'd personally get into shounen-ai and yaoi, but I can certainly respect it -- EXCEPT when it's fanfic/fancomic that changes the sexual preference of someone else's character. That's just not cool. If a character is designed heterosexual, a fan shouldn't make him homosexual -- and if he's homosexual, a fan shouldn't make him a hetero. That is wrong... I think that phenomenon probably enhances any "bad rap" the genre might have.

BTW, I think the reasons I wouldn't read any myself are 1) I just plain don't like romance stories, and 2) I can't relate. I like to see a girl because I can relate to a girl. *Shrug*

well, I agree that some people are real BL-haters for no apparent reason. but I think, honestly and completely, that the people who complain about shounen-ai webcomics are just jealous. plain and simple. it's sour grapes... I mean, some people complain about how popular boy's love comics are, and how some people only read them... you can't force someone to like your comic! if some genre is just inherently more popular within a subculture of a subculture, just deal with it!!
I personally see a lot of BL comics that just don't thrill me, and are basically just poorly drawn smut riddled with misspellings. those are the ones I don't read. But generally I LOVE BL; honestly, if you could see my manga collection, there's a lot of those lame shounen-ai romance one-shots.

I think the genre offers lots of stuff that is inherently missing in straight romance. for instance, usually in romantic movies, the guy is all perfect and charming (in that slightly imperfect way) and the girl is just pretty, with a rather annoying personality. Take Titanic for example. Leonardo DiCaprio babbles all this romantic mush at Kate Winslet, then dies for her... and she's just all lame and "boo-hoo I'm rich ;_;!!"

I guess it's just the result of our patriarchal society, but I almost always (with very few exceptions) hate the women in literature and film, because of the sexist and ugly way we're portrayed. SO!!! that means that in BL, there are no women!! the spell is broken!! I guess it's a weak solution to that kind of problem, but it works for me. Sure, there are specific roles for the 'seme' and the 'uke' in BL, but at least it's not the same old gender roles we've had drilled into our skulls since childhood. I haven't really read any yuri, but in Loveless there was this lesbian couple that were just the cutest thing ever, and part of the reason why their relationship didn't seem false and forced and stale was because it obviously couldn't cleave to the generic standards of straight relationships.

(oh, and to D0m, it's boy's love, not boylove... boylove is a term pedophiles use describing pedophilia. heh!)

Actually, I believe that well-drawn BL comics get 300+ fans. BL comics that aren't as well drawn get, say, a little more than 50 fans. So it's a matter of artistic skill, doesn't matter if the writing's decent, if it looks glossy and the boys are cute, then you can guarantee you'll have a bunch of fans.

Sprite comics will never get the love that BL comics get, despite BL comics getting fragged by others. Sprite comics get very few fans and a LOT of hate. It's saddening, but we brought this upon ourselves.

Kristen Gudsnuk
(oh, and to D0m, it's boy's love, not boylove... boylove is a term pedophiles use describing pedophilia. heh!)

Pretty safe to say that we all have the same opinion on that.

Kristen Gudsnuk
I think the genre offers lots of stuff that is inherently missing in straight romance. for instance,

So is that the only reason, or are there more reasons for preferring to read BL manga? This is an interesting topic, please elaborate.

Please, everyone, nobody really cares if you personally like or dislike BL manga. I'd like to hear more on why this genre is liked by the ppl who like it, without the topic getting derailed and buried by personal confessions. Thank you.

I think it's basically because it doesn't seem like an attempt at originality, but more of something to fall back on that's reliably popular and rather gratifying to draw/read. I know that isn't always the case, but I want to read comics that have something original going for them, and basically all of the "boy love" comics I've seen (web and print) are just...eh. Been there done that. Then again, most webcomics IN GENERAL are "been there done that," so. Yeah.

I also think that by defining your comic as boy-love, shounen-ai, yaoi, etc., you're pigeon-holing yourself in an awful way. I think the best example of NOT doing that is Josh Lesnick's comic Girly, because though it is very clearly and often rather explicitly about lesbians...the purpose of the comic isn't to be a lesbian comic. It's about a relationship and a town, and the couple happens to be two girls.

If I were to suddenly define my comic in some similar way, for instance...if I said >:0 is a chibi gag comic focusing on the banter between a teenage girl and her boyfriend, well. I just limited myself an awful lot right there, even though that's a relatively true statement to make (though I would never actually call it chibi - some people have, but I give ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIT to the Japanese in the evolution of my style).

I guess what I'm trying to say is...those comics that define themselves by the sexual orientation and escapades of their characters, pigeon-holed in a recognizably shounen-ai style...Yeah. Those are annoying. Go out there and do something original. It especially pains me when I see a truly phenomenal artist limit themselves like that -- there is no reason to end up subjecting yourself to the negativity surrounding boylove in the webcomic community.

Kristen Gudsnuk
I think the genre offers lots of stuff that is inherently missing in straight romance. for instance, usually in romantic movies, the guy is all perfect and charming (in that slightly imperfect way) and the girl is just pretty, with a rather annoying personality. Take Titanic for example. Leonardo DiCaprio babbles all this romantic mush at Kate Winslet, then dies for her... and she's just all lame and "boo-hoo I'm rich ;_;!!"

I guess it's just the result of our patriarchal society, but I almost always (with very few exceptions) hate the women in literature and film, because of the sexist and ugly way we're portrayed. SO!!! that means that in BL, there are no women!! the spell is broken!! I guess it's a weak solution to that kind of problem, but it works for me.

Oh I see, so I was wrong all these years thinking the solution was making interesting, complex female characters the readers can relate to! The REAL solution is to make male characters who look and act like women! How did I never realise that!?

Seriously though. Girls creating male characters who are pretty and sweet and like to cuddle and talk is JUST AS BAD as guys making female characters who have huge boobs and walk around in their underwear. It's gratuitous fantasy. Surely it would be far better to show the world how cool women can be by making female characters who are really well written and believable than to use the excuse 'well, they do it to us' and depict men as women would fantasise about them being. It IS a weak solution. In fact, it's not even a solution. It's running away from the problem! The only real solution is making characters of both genders who are really awesome, and showing the world a new way of thinking about gender.

I'm not a big fan of romance comics regardless of the gender of the participants, to be honest. Don't get me wrong- I love a good romance! But I like it as part of a story rather than the entire story. I like something MORE, and the majority of romance-specific stories, straight or gay, just follow the "character goes to school. Someone there is really hot!!!" etc. formula.

If someone can offer me more than that, I'll be much more interested, and probably more invested in the romance, too.

One romance that has me enjoying it very much is Yu+Me . It DOES follow the "someone hot at school" thing, but I think it does it in a totally fresh way. The characters are deep and easy to relate to, and the story keeps me wanting to find out what happens on the next page.

So I think the thing for me personally is just that I need to see something fresh and new about it.

Well wyldflowa, your comic doesn't seem to be that much of a BL story- I skimmed through a few pages, and sure, it has two guys that look like they're going to get together or something, but the latest arc seems to be focusing on the relationship between a guy and (I think) a girl. So in all honesty, your comic can't strictly be called a yaoi.

And the "die in a fire" comment was mainly directed at the fangirls who write BL for the sake of having effeminate men getting boned in the ass. The worst of the bunch are those that make gay Naruto or Inuyasha or whatever the crap is popular stories. Sasuke and Naruto would never get together, get the fuck over it.

Anyway, my hate for the BL genre mainly stems from the fact that my main exposure to the genre was from godforsaken site (my ex-girlfriend convinced me to look at it). Actually, that site made me hate anime in general, come to think of it.

Lastly, BL is far from the least respected genre. Sprite comics are. With gay porn, some people like it. With sprite comics, NOBODY likes it. Hell, there are people that make sprite comics don't like sprite comics.

I think all the stuff that I was going to say has been said here, so I'll sum up my opinion.

I don't actively dislike yaoi comics but it's not something I'm interested in:

1. Yaoi is the new Harlequin Romance and I'm just not into that kind of empty romance stuff

2. Gratuitous fantasy

3. Often stop at 'boy love' and don't develop story, characters, etc - just an excuse to draw the gratuitous fantasy

4. Bias against typical fanbase turns me off

5. Typical characters are tender girlish boys and they aren't my thing

Wow. It's amazing how accurate that was.

I suppose that would explain Uchiha Sasuke....

BA-ZING!

(note: this rant is totally generalized. I understand there are exceptions to every rule but it's too annoying to have to state that over and over again.)

All right, here comes the opinion from the yaoi loving lesbian, so you KNOW it's totally credible.

I like yaoi, yuri, shounen-ai, and shoujo-ai. I even can appreciate straight couplings and sex.

In real life though, give me a cute girl with a fluffy hour glass figure or a nice smooth tummy and a sweet personality.

I'll tell you why people do and don't like shounen-ai.

Most girls I know like it because, and just be honest girls! they want to see two guys getting on. Their chicks who like dicks and two is better than one, yes? That includes guys who are gay. For the same reason guys like to watch two girls make out, girls like the opposite. So sue them guys. God forbid they like what you like in reverse!

Another reason is a loathing of how females are depicted. Most porn is little romance and all "OH YEAH BABY RIGHT THERE! AHH!" Guys have their hormones and girls have theirs. Guys hormones are satisfied with sudden spontaneous one night stands and raunchy girls in thongs who are uber submissive. (Hey sometimes I am too!) Girls, though, tend to want a nice romantic story to go along with their raunchy sex.

The American pornography industry is weighted towards the male majority of porn watchers.

And this has to do with yaoi because...?

Weeeeell, it makes a pretty nice alternative to the "OH MY GOD YOU STALLION AHHHH!" don't you think?

Also, going along with the premise that girls like to watch two guys making out, the reason they make em feminine sometimes is either because that's just their preference, OR because that's the kind of relationship that's been ingrained in their mind as an example of a typical relationship.

And the fangirls said "yes!" You're about to say "boo!"

Sorry girls, but some of us ARE kind of tired of it. I'll be honest, if Rainbow Carousel was just about two boys who made out a lot, I wouldn't read it except as a favor to you as a friend, Chloe. I read it because it's got a gripping story that sucks you in with very in depth characters.

There are way too many freaking shounen-ai comics these days. X.x I'm considering making a good tasteful shoujo-ai just to offer something different. At first it was cute and charming but it never seems to vary and the average BL comic is so cliched.

I don't mind feminine male characters, obviously, but I can see how they get annoying for some people.

In short, everyone should just let everyone else be and realize that people have their preferences.

Girls and guys like BL because... well they like what they like.

And some guys and girls don't like it because they just don't.

I like everything, so yay, go me. ^0^

I'm sure it has a lot to do with the fact most boy love stories are poorly written and using popular characters who have no real attraction to each other.

I'm looking at you, Potter-Malfoy slashers.

And what a cute pairing it is! :DDD

I love RC. It's a good believable gay-love comic. I just don't like the hard-core stuff that much.

PLEASE FORGIVE MY TWO CENTS RANT: I DO NOT MEAN OFFENSE

I take a feminist perspective to hard core yaoi comics, somethings thinking... girl yaoi artists must hate girl characters if all they want to draw is only guys characters that love each other. It's like their perfect world where worthless girl characters don't exist.

It makes me wonder if these artists that draw the most horrible yaoi slash senses are afraid of letting something awful happen to a girl character like getting pregnate, hurt in any way, or god forbid any kind of sex. It follows the belief that girl + sex = slut.

People believe too that it's the most taboo thing to hurt woman and children in fiction. Only the evilest of the bad guys do that.
But a guy character (even though he looks just like a girl) oh...you can do anything to him because it's not taboo in fiction to do horrible physical things to a man...

(I'm not going to say any names but if that girly looking main guy character in this certain DD comic were really a girl; oh the artist will get soooo much more flames and hate than any amount of blue moon "yaoi should die in a fire" comments.)

In the idea of the Chasing Amy movie: if two people of the same sex do it, it doesn't count as real sex.
So I think that most fan girls think that yaoi is more pure than mainstream pornography, that they are not really drawing pornography because it's called ^-^ yaoi ^-^.

Alright well back to topic... NO. Yaoi is not the least respected comic genre. Sprite comics are. Boy love comics are not bad in my opinion I just get frustrated with ones that lack actual love between the characters, have only the slashing/rape and lack any worthwhile female characters. Yaoi is a real audience specific genre.. it's love or hate. So don't sweat over the haters, because the yaoi genre will always have people that don't like it.

Hey that's true. When I RP with my friend, we sometimes RP out sex scenes and we almost always do the gay/lesbian scenes but sometimes leave off on the straight ones. But she's straight. I think the reason is because we start fretting about things like pregnancy and stuff like that.

Straight sex is too complicated. D: It has all these consequences. The girl is viewed as a slut, the girl could get pregnant, the guy could be seen as a manipulative jerk, people expect them to stay together...

So it makes it hard to write a comic between a guy and a girl that's both romantic and has sex. Cause then you start thinking of consequences, consequences and can't comfortably write it.

Well I mean, it's probably not the only reason, but it's very valid.

You're so smart JillyFoo. <3

reidavidson
I think the reason is because we start fretting about things like pregnancy and stuff like that.

If that's the reason, can't you just say it takes place some sort of Children of Men dystopian world where women can't get pregnant?

Or at least just put the character on the pill.

I already said that wasn't the only reason. o.o;

Edit: XDD And at least BL stories are more realistic than a world where women can't get pregnant.

Eviltwinpixie
I'm not a big fan of romance comics regardless of the gender of the participants, to be honest. Don't get me wrong- I love a good romance! But I like it as part of a story rather than the entire story. I like something MORE, and the majority of romance-specific stories, straight or gay, just follow the "character goes to school. Someone there is really hot!!!" etc. formula.

If someone can offer me more than that, I'll be much more interested, and probably more invested in the romance, too.

One romance that has me enjoying it very much is Yu+Me . It DOES follow the "someone hot at school" thing, but I think it does it in a totally fresh way. The characters are deep and easy to relate to, and the story keeps me wanting to find out what happens on the next page.

So I think the thing for me personally is just that I need to see something fresh and new about it.

Good posting.

I don't know anything about this boy love "cliche" that people are talking about. I've never seen very much of it. I dont read manga though, so that might be why. More people should write gay characters. Male and female.

They shouldn't, as said in the quote above me, write a romance story about it though. Write good stories that happen to have gay people rather than making a story specifically about gay people.

Hijuda

reidavidson
I think the reason is because we start fretting about things like pregnancy and stuff like that.

If that's the reason, can't you just say it takes place some sort of Children of Men dystopian world where women can't get pregnant?

Or at least just put the character on the pill.

The problem with that is that, for many people at least, these things serve as escapism. Female characters don't generally take the pill for the same reason that one generally doesn't see a character making a bathroom stop as part of a routine day. They're reminders of little nuisances that make things real, which, even in comics that are supposed to be more true-to-life in their settings and plots, destroy some of the suspension of reality that's necessary for the whole escapism thing.

Though, I have to say, that would be a *very* interesting thing to see in a comic -- a girl actually having to take the pill, I mean.

reidavidson
Hey that's true. When I RP with my friend, we sometimes RP out sex scenes and we almost always do the gay/lesbian scenes but sometimes leave off on the straight ones. But she's straight. I think the reason is because we start fretting about things like pregnancy and stuff like that.

Straight sex is too complicated. D: It has all these consequences. The girl is viewed as a slut, the girl could get pregnant, the guy could be seen as a manipulative jerk, people expect them to stay together...

So it makes it hard to write a comic between a guy and a girl that's both romantic and has sex. Cause then you start thinking of consequences, consequences and can't comfortably write it.

Well I mean, it's probably not the only reason, but it's very valid.

You're so smart JillyFoo. <3

I dont know if i like that reasoning. Nothing personal. Nothing against your stories, but it has to many flaws. There are consequences to homosexual sex just as there are to straight sex. Besides, not everybody gets pregnant when they have sex. Use condoms and other birth control. Be smart about the sex your writing.

People wont think the guy is a jerk if you write him to be a nice guy who has sex rather than a guy who is only out to get sex. There are plenty of books out there that have men and women having sex with out either one looking bad. No, they aren't always married. No, it isn't always consequential.

Also, using the stereotype that hetero sex is somehow more permanent is awful.

Change "racist" to "homophobic" or in the case of those of us who play for the other side, "heterophobic" and you have the answer to this whole issue.

reidavidson
Change "racist" to "homophobic" or in the case of those of us who play for the other side, "heterophobic" and you have the answer to this whole issue.

I believe everybody is prejudiced in some way, but I do not believe that everybody is racist or homophobic. I am not homophobic. I also wouldn't say that I am racist, I do have a prejudice though. I freakin' hate right wingers, and evangelical christians(who are usually right wingers anyway)!