DAJB

darrell
Before the "Batman RIP" storyline was announced the rumour had Bruce Wayne being killed in Final Crisis with Jason Todd taking up the mantel.

Hey, what a shrewd move that would be ... Let's take one of our most unpopular characters (who even the readers voted to kill off) and have him replace one of our most popular ... Hmmm - sounds just like the kind of thinking DC would come up with!
;)

Actually it wasn't Jason Todd, but Robin himself that the readers voted to kill. (I was one of 'em, by the way--I paid 50 cents to vote "Kill Robin"!)

Robin does not work in a post-Frank Miller universe.

Robin works well next to Dick Sprang's Batman, swinging on a rope from the top of a 40 foot coffee pot or something, and kayoing a Penguin who says "Wak! Curses! Foiled again!"

Robin works well on 1960s TV next to Adam West, smacking his fist into his glove and quipping something like "Holy bad interior decorator, Batman!"

Robin does not work in a world where most of Batman's foes are homicidal maniacs. What happened to him in "A Death in the Family" was long overdue.

Robin should be killed again and written out. Most of the other "bat-superfriends"--Batgirl/Oracle (?), the 'friendly' Catwoman, Huntress, and so on--should also be written out of the continuity. Nightwing should be moved 2000 miles away from Gotham, or to Europe.

The Batman books are topheavy with supporting superheroes in tights when what the franchise really needs is more exciting everyday characters, like Jim Gordon.

TitanOne
Robin should be killed again and written out.

Well, they've killed two so far, but what's the point if they keep coming back?

TitanOne
The Batman books are topheavy with supporting superheroes in tights when what the franchise really needs is more exciting everyday characters, like Jim Gordon.

Sooo - that'll be Gotham Central, then ...
;-)

Batman's gonna die, and then Superman's gonna get his back broken.....

:P

2 things surprise me about this thread:

1) The fact that anyone would actually ask "who's going to protect Gotham?", and

2) The fact that anyone still invests enough of themselves into these characters to actually give a rip.

To my first surprise, aside from the fact that Gotham doesn't exist & therefore it's well-being isn't worth any emotional turmoil, creating a new protector for Gotham could be accomplished in 2 minutes of discussion between editors. At best, it's a silly concern.

And, as far as my second surprise, I'm still floored so many fanboys (& girls) continue to buy into these mainstream titles. Not a one of the titles has any relevency (sp?). No one ever really dies, so death has no impact. Certainly no money-making character will ever die (at least as long as he/she is adding to the bottom line) - and don't give me "Steve Rogers". NO ONE bought that book for Mr. Rogers. Captain America is just fine. And we ALL know Steve Rogers will be back one day. They *might* kill Bruce Wayne (though that's losing bet), but Batman will be around until he stops making money for DC.

And, if there is no death, how can any character ever truly be in peril? There is no tension in any of the books, beyond fan-geeks getting their nads in a knot because they disagree with how a character or situation is written.

Plus, do any of you realize that if you paid the same amount of money per minute on a movie that do on just one comic book, that movie would cost you between 16 and 25 bucks? Why do we put up with so much inane crap for such a poor entertainment dollar?

Seriously, why the heck do any of you give a wit?

Later,
Chip

While I don't touch anything by the Big 3 unless it's a limited series (because I know it'll actually end) I can answer this question.

Escapism.

Superheroes touch at the very core of humanities dreams. They're men who're larger than life that do great things no man could ever imagine doing. Even powerless heroes like Batman are insanely smart, strong, resilient, and charismatic. Life is usually unfair and boring but these comics are presented with some modicum of reality with characters larger than life. Given the market, there are millions of people who like this so who are you to say that it's not at the very least entertaining?

The heroes are timeless, yes, but their situations do change. People enjoyed seeing Peter Parker grow up as they did. It was a huge blow to fans to see everything revert back to normal for the sake of sales, but the story arcs do carry some very basic literary merit with character development. That's not to say that it isn't 100% fueled by sales but it the companies do try their hardest to please while looking out for their future dollars.

It's just more times than not the dollar is more important than the fan.

cs3ink
Seriously, why the heck do any of you give a wit?

Americans are weird that way. They like things nobody else likes. You know, like football, baseball, and inches.
I liked superhero stuff too when I was a kid. The Superman movies, even the sucky Spiderman movies (the oooold ones), and the Jpnese superheroes like Ultraman. But I grew out of the spandex genre reeeeal quick.

I see no need to make this anti-American. huh!?

mlai

cs3ink
Seriously, why the heck do any of you give a wit?

Americans are weird that way. They like things nobody else likes. You know, like football, baseball, and inches.
I liked superhero stuff too when I was a kid. The Superman movies, even the sucky Spiderman movies (the oooold ones), and the Jpnese superheroes like Ultraman. But I grew out of the spandex genre reeeeal quick.

I'm a SERIOUSLY proud American, dueeast, but I think I agree. How the heck else do you explain how a cast of characters that never really change, never really die, or are never really in an peril continue to cause Americans to buy their cliched, pointless epics. How else do you explain the popularity of some seriously crappy movies (Pirates III, for example - despite what anyone says, it was a messy, convoluted, audience-masturbation).

Americans appear to prefer shallow stories that they can microwave on their schedule. Truly solid, deep narratives hold our interest for so very little time. X-Men outsell books like Maus by such an embarrassingly large percentage as to make Maus insignificant. We'd rather read Stephen King than anything with depth.

But you know, I think it's really no different in Europe or Japan (hence the over-abundance of hentei & the like).

Eh, what do I know?

Later,
Chip

mlai

cs3ink
Seriously, why the heck do any of you give a wit?

Americans are weird that way. They like things nobody else likes. You know, like football, baseball, and inches.
I liked superhero stuff too when I was a kid. The Superman movies, even the sucky Spiderman movies (the oooold ones), and the Jpnese superheroes like Ultraman. But I grew out of the spandex genre reeeeal quick.

The spandex heroes--like America--are easy to underestimate and dismiss at this rather embarrassing point in the history of both. ;)

Superheroes are wonderful, wonderful characters when they're done well.

I'm tempted to try my hand at a superhero--cape, flight, bare knuckles fisticuffs, and all. (Wish colorization was not such a slow, tedious process...!)

cs3ink
How else do you explain the popularity of some seriously crappy movies (Pirates III, for example - despite what anyone says, it was a messy, convoluted, audience-masturbation).

That film was appallingly bad--and I'm not only a huge fan of Disney (as most of my friends are well aware), but a major Piratophile as well.

Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End had a huge design flaw that many movies nowadays suffer from: Thoroughly excremental writing that is expected to thrill the audience simply because practically anything can be done with modern CGI effects.

The filmmakers don't quite understand that just because you can make a 90-foot tall Voodoo Priestess with blackened teeth who collapses into a mountain of thousands of white stone crabs is no reason why you should do it.

I understand that the superhero genre taps into a yearning for contemporary mythos. Iliad, Odyssey, etc etc etc were all contemporary adventures at the time when they're created. In fact, nobody in history except for the modern man seems to have any desire for telling stories set in the past.

However, this modern genre has one huge flaw that all the legends of old do not have, the one flaw which I consider to kill the genre as a whole. All legends end. Read any epic, edda, or cyle that you want. The heroes all age, die, and the stories end, or go on with their children.

Seems the easiest method would just be to reinvent the story every time. Don't just keep them going forever. End them.
Then just start over again with the same characters. That would make things more interesting cause you never know when the hero may actually die. Or if it just gets to a conclusive area and stops. Don't need magic to revert everything. Just Start over again.

As mlai said, the fact that these things never end really hurts them. Everything should have some sort of planned ending otherwise you get nothing but run on hype that never amounts.

cs3ink
And, if there is no death, how can any character ever truly be in peril? There is no tension in any of the books, beyond fan-geeks getting their nads in a knot because they disagree with how a character or situation is written.

Plus, do any of you realize that if you paid the same amount of money per minute on a movie that do on just one comic book, that movie would cost you between 16 and 25 bucks? Why do we put up with so much inane crap for such a poor entertainment dollar?

Seriously, why the heck do any of you give a wit?

Later,
Chip

Well, that's not particularly true for all characters. I like to read the main stream titles that don't take themselves so seriously, like the Great Lakes Avengers or that Alpha Flight that was written in comedic tone. These books are funny, they give me my super hero fix, and if a character dies in one of them, they stay dead.

And also, I tend to like comics because they are fun. I know that may sound shallow, but frankly I think that if reading about the X-men makes me happy, I should read about them. I enjoy books like Maus and Persepolis, but I also like brain candy mainstream stuff.

mlai
However, this modern genre has one huge flaw that all the legends of old do not have, the one flaw which I consider to kill the genre as a whole. All legends end. Read any epic, edda, or cyle that you want. The heroes all age, die, and the stories end, or go on with their children.

That's a flaw in the publishing format, not the genre.

I get all that, but I'm still amazed (& saddened) that enough of us swallow this bile to keep it going.

I mean, we're not talking kids here. Sure, kids still collect comics, but I think a majority of the patrons are 16 & up. How sad is it that they actually care about characters that seldom ever change, are never truly in peril, and never age. It's sorta like a twisted "the boy who cried wolf".

"Oh, no! Spiderman/Batman/Superman/the X-Men (whatever) are in danger! They might die! Whew, that was close." times infinity. How can we escape into something that is so mundane & predictable & shallow?

What a sad commentary about us as a society.

Later,
Chip

cs3ink
What a sad commentary about us as a society.

Say CS3, did something happen? I seldom see you so worked up in the forums, lol.

mlai
In fact, nobody in history except for the modern man seems to have any desire for telling stories set in the past.

Hey that's not true... Homer's Iliad was about events which supposedly happened in the past. The Arthurian legends were all about mythical heroes from the past (plus fairy stories), the eddas were all written hundreds of years after the end of the heyday of the Norse culture and talk about events that supposedly happened before even that time, Beowulf was set hundreds of years before the time it was written, the legendary journeys were stories set in the past even at the time, Shakespeare wrote about many past events- "real" and imagined, the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries in Europe were full of reminiscence about the past in various forms.... We had the stories of the brothers Grimm and Has Christian Anderson... :)

I won't defend the superhero subculture though...

cs3ink
What a sad commentary about us as a society.

Most people watch shit movies, have the most horrible taste in music and eat junkfood too. I'm not sure I understand how the ever-waning popularity of a few superhero characters is somehow a more notably "sad commentary about us as a society" than the fact that I can't turn on my TV without seeing gossip about the latest glaringly talentless walking boobjob relapsing five minutes after she's out of rehab.

I have only one thing to say, apart from agreeing with ozone on the subject of the myths and legends as well as the Brother's Grimm etc. I gave up on Superheroes a long time ago. The only Superhero comics that I'll read these days are right here on DD.

Bulletproof and Hero by Night.

You can only see a hero escape from the jaws of death so many times, before you become immensely jaded with the whole thing. This is why I like Hero, because the legacy continues with a new hero and not the old one.

I also loved the early note-book style things. To me this is way better than Batman and so on has become.

My 2 pennies worth there.

spacehamster

cs3ink
What a sad commentary about us as a society.

Most people watch shit movies, have the most horrible taste in music and eat junkfood too. I'm not sure I understand how the ever-waning popularity of a few superhero characters is somehow a more notably "sad commentary about us as a society" than the fact that I can't turn on my TV without seeing gossip about the latest glaringly talentless walking boobjob relapsing five minutes after she's out of rehab.

Those stories and Reality TV can jump off a cliff as far as I'm concerned!

I included a mention of the "shit movies" in one of my previous posts, spacehamster. While I didn't include TV, isn't it a given? Do I really need to mention it?

And this tread is about some silly concern of whether Batman will die or not, so my focus is on comics. Were this about whether there will be a PotC IV, I would have likely focus my attention on the sad state of cinema.

Later,
Chip

Doctor Shadow
The only Superhero comics that I'll read these days are right here on DD.

Bulletproof and Hero by Night.

Aw, thanks, man.

cs3ink
I included a mention of the "shit movies" in one of my previous posts, spacehamster. While I didn't include TV, isn't it a given? Do I really need to mention it?

No. But the way you phrased it, it sounded like crappy comics were somehow the greatest symptom of the downfall of western culture, which I found a bit strange given that they've become a fringe medium by now. If anything, the fact that comic sales have been in the toilet for years could be misinterpreted as a sign that the general public avoids poor quality writing. Which isn't the case, of course.

spacehamster

cs3ink
What a sad commentary about us as a society.

Most people watch shit movies, have the most horrible taste in music and eat junkfood too. I'm not sure I understand how the ever-waning popularity of a few superhero characters is somehow a more notably "sad commentary about us as a society" than the fact that I can't turn on my TV without seeing gossip about the latest glaringly talentless walking boobjob relapsing five minutes after she's out of rehab.

Good point.

Our culture loves Britney, Dr. Phil, rap music, McDonald's, and Taco Bell. Compared to these things, Batman is thrilling and downright unpredictable.

I'd have to disagree TO. Batman is as flavorless & predictable as any Big Mac. He'll wring his hands about his dead parents, face a villain, look like he's about to be defeated, & suddenly win the battle. If something traumatic does happen, it's either erased or forgotten by the time the next writer takes charge. If he lost an arm, it would reappear soon enough, either by magic or time travel.

Wow, I've become rather jaded, haven't I?

Later,
Chip

cs3ink
I'd have to disagree TO. Batman is as flavorless & predictable as any Big Mac. He'll wring his hands about his dead parents, face a villain, look like he's about to be defeated, & suddenly win the battle. If something traumatic does happen, it's either erased or forgotten by the time the next writer takes charge. If he lost an arm, it would reappear soon enough, either by magic or time travel.

Wow, I've become rather jaded, haven't I?

Can I join your club?

spacehamster
That's a flaw in the publishing format, not the genre.

Exactly! There hasn't been one argument presented here against super hero comics that isn't also true of virtually every other genre in almost every other medium.

Novels, movies and TV shows all have heroes who overcome impossible odds, do incredibly inane things and act in unrealistic ways. Hell, even the most grounded-in-reality soaps have characters who return from the dead!

The problem is in the writing and the ongoing monthly format, not the genre.

Doctor Shadow
The only Superhero comics that I'll read these days are Bulletproof and Hero by Night.

Hey! I thought you were reading Shades, too!
;)

@slaps himself and nods to DAJB: Shades as well!

Though, to me it's not the traditional Superhero comic that many might think, which is why I love it :)

It's a sign that I'm getting old!

I slammed movies as well, DAJB. People in general seem to just want microwavable entertainment.

But, since the thread is about he possible inane death of a comic icon, I've focused most of my attention on said medium. Trust me, I can go on just as passionately on books, movies, & TV.

Later,
Chip

Like some others here have expressed, DD is really the only place I go for comics now. There's some great, original comics of so many different varieties and writing/art styles. I love it!

It's exactly what's been missing from print comics... :spin:

Yeah, I don't understand how someone can stay constantly interested in super heroes...but I don't understand how someone can stay constantly interested in Star Wars either. XD

Probably the one I can stay interested in the longest is Batman....but really that's just because the villains are cool. Batman himself can kiss my ass. XP I always did root for Joker and Scarecrow while watching the animated series...