http://www.newsarama.com/comics/010919-Diamond-Thresholds.html

Now is the threshold per year? It seems like it but I am not sure...

Another reason to go with the internet.

no money is to be made off the internet.


havendistro.com

Wow, that article is really depressing. But it makes sense, I guess. I haven't been able to afford to buy print comics for a while, now. I assume that I'm not the only one having to cut that kind of thing out of my budget. Less folks buying comics = less money to be made off comics = books that don't make bank don't get on the shelves. :(

It's a good thing we've still got print-on-demand services. Sure, it's a little harder getting it distributed to comic shops... but if you play your cards right, you can still get the comics to your fans.

Webcomics.com had an overview of various print-on-demand services if anyone's curious:

http://webcomics.com/2008/11/11/print-on-demand-overview-2/

What this actually seems to show is that graphic novels have a fighting chance, but the single issue comics are going to go way down.

If I sell my graphic novel for $15, I only need to see about a little over 400 of them. (And they go by amount of books in a series sold per year, so if I have 6 books and sell 80 copies of each, I'll be good.)

Single issue comics, typically sold for around $3-4, need to sell thousands to meet the benchmark.

Graphic novels have been taking over the single issues by leaps and bounds. I don't even buy comics unless they're in graphic novel form.

But plenty of money is to be made off the internet, especially if you're a well-known publishing company. I frequent sites for small presses like SLG and Fantagraphics and occasionally buy stuff off the site. They actually make MORE money when I do that, because they get 100% of the sale, rather than 40% for having to use Diamond to distribute it.

Exactly. No one except the endangered species of old 30-something comics fans even go to comics stores anymore.

So why pay money to be distributed to stores that attract no new readers? The only ppl who go to those stores are ppl getting their monthly fix of X-men etc. They don't want to pay for your comics.

mlai
Exactly. No one except the endangered species of old 30-something comics fans even go to comics stores anymore.

So why pay money to be distributed to stores that attract no new readers? The only ppl who go to those stores are ppl getting their monthly fix of X-men etc. They don't want to pay for your comics.

this is a point ive been trying to argue for a long time now on the CBR boards, but they are so stuck in their old ways they dont even see the dinosaurs theyve become.

mlai
Exactly. No one except the endangered species of old 30-something comics fans even go to comics stores anymore.

So why pay money to be distributed to stores that attract no new readers? The only ppl who go to those stores are ppl getting their monthly fix of X-men etc. They don't want to pay for your comics.

I'm not part of that group and I still dig around those shops. But I'm looking for old issues from past series not new comics.

Hasn't this shift been coming for a long time? I mean I can't imagine there's all that many people out there in the comic industry who didn't see it coming and are being caught by surprise.

the sad thing is, they ARE, though. well, maybe not anyone in the actual process of making comics, but the fanboys certainly are acting that way. it really is sad, because they see these characters as real people and they have a reverence for them that borders on religious fervor, and they seem completely unable to understand why anyone else wouldnt want to spend 100 bucks a month on 20 comics that they'll read through in 10 minutes.

NickGuy
dinosaurs

sshhhhh! they don't want their secret identities leaked out to the public!

I still enjoy going into comic shops so long as they have a good selection of indie titles, or at the very least, non-Marvel -DC comics. But if that ends up being all that's left, we'll start to see comics stores closing, and that's sad.

I still go to the shop to pick up new issues of comics, non marvel and DC of course. The only monthly book I pick up regular is Madman Atomic Comics though. We still need our comic shops to get the non mainstream graphic novels.

Mushroomcomix
I still go to the shop to pick up new issues of comics, non marvel and DC of course. The only monthly book I pick up regular is Madman Atomic Comics though. We still need our comic shops to get the non mainstream graphic novels.

That's the point of this link. Diamond is making it harder and harder for indie titles to survive. It's forcing comics shops into their own gradual extinction by forcing them to stock only Big 3 comics.

that's true but there is not much people can do about it, they have a monopoly on the market but are untouchable because they don't hold a monopoly on the book market in general. There are also other distributors to go through that don't have the benchmark.

I've found most people who say they only support indie comics either don't even buy comics at all and want to seem like they're trendy fighting the 'man'(DC/marvel)or mistakingly thought vertigo was indie(it's owned by DC) :/ I'm not saying there aren't people who support indie, but it seems to be mostly 'fight the man' types instead of people who genuinely like the comics.

Anyhow the only two comics i look forward too are walking dead and invincible, Any other ones i pick up because of the art(looking now they're all marvel) but the story never draws me in.
I've found this-and it's a total generalization with exceptions- applies the most;
DC: caters to the loyal fanbase of their bigger titles, not much room for new reader appeal.
Marvel: Amazing artwork with sub-par writing.
Vertigo: Excellent stories with medium/decent art.
Image: great stylized artwork, stories are hit and miss.(unless it's kirkman~)

The medium has changed drastically. Comic books in print have been dying a slow and brutal death over the past 10 years. Marvel and DC are really only making money through films, DVD's, trade paperback collections, etc. Their monthly print titles aren't the main draw anymore. This spells certain death to the small publishers out there unless they can adapt. Sadly, most of them don't have the capital to adapt.

What is the difference between USA comics business, and the manga-brought-to-USA business, that one is failing while the other is thriving?

mlai
What is the difference between USA comics business, and the manga-brought-to-USA business, that one is failing while the other is thriving?

chicks dig manga.
theres less of a religious reverence to the characters in manga as there is in american comics.
It's a newer, more rebellious artform...and thus more attractive. Ive always said that comics are the most "sexy" when they are breaking rules or doing something drastically new...frank miller, vertigo, Heavy Metal, the europeans coming into comics in the 80s are some of the examples that comes to mind.


american comics right now are too safe and cater too much to the fanboys. its time for more irreverence and fucking shit up, a la DK2.

and I dont mean tame shit like secret invasion or Killing bruce wayne or some lame shit like that or whatever...I want to see some creators come in who dont care what spider-man or batman has been doing for the past 60 years...Some genuinely NEW shit.

NickGuy
and I dont mean tame shit like secret invasion or Killing bruce wayne or some lame shit like that or whatever...I want to see some creators come in who dont care what spider-man or batman has been doing for the past 60 years...Some genuinely NEW shit.

But at the same time who are the real money makers? Those smaller original comics do not even come close to touching batman or spidermans billion dollar enterprise.

Think about it this way; you make a webcomic. It goes on for a long long time eventually snowballing a fanbase the size of tokyo. Because it's gone on for so long you're running out of ideas fast, it turns into this crapstain of alternate universes and new characters, but the fans are still loyal.
On the side you make a new comic, it has a great plot unlike your popular comic and is new and original-excited you advertise it on your old comic and enjoy the spike in readership on it- until a week later when no one is reading it.
You've had that popular comic for so long the minuscule numbers on the new comic make you wonder if it's worth the effort. People have built up years of loyalty to your old comic, not the superior new. In the end you realize you've got a good thing going with the old and roll with it.

Skullbie
Think about it this way; you make a webcomic. It goes on for a long long time eventually snowballing a fanbase the size of tokyo. Because it's gone on for so long you're running out of ideas fast, it turns into this crapstain of alternate universes and new characters, but the fans are still loyal.
On the side you make a new comic, it has a great plot unlike your popular comic and is new and original-excited you advertise it on your old comic and enjoy the spike in readership on it- until a week later when no one is reading it.
You've had that popular comic for so long the minuscule numbers on the new comic make you wonder if it's worth the effort. People have built up years of loyalty to your old comic, not the superior new. In the end you realize you've got a good thing going with the old and roll with it.

but thats not whats happened. comic sales are going DOWN. If im sitting there and im still making the tons of money, then yes, it doesnt really matter. but if i start losing money and readers because im not doing anything new, then its time to start doing something new. readership on batman was at an all time low before miller and dark knight returns. sometimes you need to shake shit up.

Sales on almost everything are going down in the American economy nickguy, not having new original idea comics has little to do with it. It may seem like it to someone who's sick of superheroes that everyone else is sick of them- but they're not.
And new comic series don't make as big a splash as you'd like to think, unless they're imbued with popular superhero icons such as secret invasion and the civil war saga. And DC DOES release original content through Vertigo, which besides Y:the last man none of them have come close to the sales of a DC comic with flagship superheroes.

Skullbie
Sales on almost everything are going down in the American economy nickguy, not having new original idea comics has little to do with it. It may seem like it to someone who's sick of superheroes that everyone else is sick of them- but they're not.
And new comic series don't make as big a splash as you'd like to think, unless they're imbued with popular superhero icons such as secret invasion and the civil war saga. And DC DOES release original content through Vertigo, which besides Y:the last man none of them have come close to the sales of a DC comic with flagship superheroes.

Yes, and half of the reason that those comics dont do well is because of DC's, and comics in general, crap ass marketing. you mentioned Y the last man, which is a great comic. dc advertised the hell out of that comic, and only because brian k vaughn was attatched as a writer.

the fact is, you could have a great title with vertigo, but who the hell cares? batman is fighting the joker again! thats the way the big 2 market their comics. they want more mass market appeal, but they advertise the niche stuff.

short and simple, the big two need to stop catering to the fanboys. you cant be afraid youll lose money, you have to take risks for the greater good. as frank miller said to jeanette kahn before doing ronin, "if you intend to die you can do anything"

That's true but they wont stop marketing to fanboys because fanboys are where their money comes from. If they have a formula that works in these times than why would they change it up at the worst possible time to take risks like that. If DC and Marvel wants to continue to make the money then they are going to keep marketing to the fanboys plain and simple. I would like to see a change just as much as you but it's not going to happen any time soon.

Mushroomcomix
That's true but they wont stop marketing to fanboys because fanboys are where their money comes from. If they have a formula that works in these times than why would they change it up at the worst possible time to take risks like that. If DC and Marvel wants to continue to make the money then they are going to keep marketing to the fanboys plain and simple. I would like to see a change just as much as you but it's not going to happen any time soon.

but the problem is, THAT MONEY IS DWINDLING. no new fanboys are being created, at least not at any rate sufficent enough to keep comics afloat. the time for change in green lantern is now, not after theyve lost every single damn green lantern fan. that kind of thinking is ridiculous. the comic companies are slaves to these fat greasy bastard's mylar bags and it is absolutely ridiculous.

If they never attempt to make new fanboys (or ANY fangirls), then even DC and Marvel will die. While Batman and the X-Men have worked well in the past, maybe it's time for them to stop flogging that dead horse.

As far as indie comics being read by a majority of people who just want to "fuck the man", I read them because they're good, and original.

And as far as manga thriving, they aren't, so much. Tokyopop reached the top of its parabola, and is now declining. Perhaps because people figured out the stories were all the same, except the characters had different hair. They picked up more titles than people were interested in reading.

megan_rose
I read them because they're good, and original.

Do you have any recommendations?

These new numbers mean that any 2.99 comic selling less than 2000+ copies will be dropped by Diamond... not necessarily on the first issue that drops below (unless it IS the first issue overall, which means later issues will go even worse) but if it keeps up, they'll axe it. This is 2500$ number given is for wholesale orders which are at 40%, so it's fairly easy to add the remaining 60% and then divide the resulting number by 3.

With trades, since their price tag is larger, the numbers are of course much lower and you'll need to push only 400-700 books a month to keep on being carried by Diamond... buuut, trades overall sell slower and some of these don't make the numbers monthly.

So a bunch of smaller publishers will be affected badly, and some might even have to stop dealing with Diamond and stick to bookstores (since their Diamond orders will be too low for comic book stores).

I think there'll be a ton of POD books that were previously printed and offered through comic book stores... at least the ones that care to finish the story rather than let it die.

Skullbie

megan_rose
I read them because they're good, and original.

Do you have any recommendations?

My #1 favorite comic: Meat Cake by Dame Darcy.
Anything by Jeffrey Brown. Bear, by Jamie Smart. Tank Girl by Martin and Hewlett. Strangers in Paradise by Terry Moore. Ghost World by Daniel Clowes.

None of that's even counting all the collections of webcomics I have.

Some of those names became very huge by the time they finished those series. But Terry Moore started out self publishing, and Tank Girl was originally published in a punk magazine.

Herobear and the kid
Earthboy Jacobus
Battle Pope
pretty much anything that comes out of IDW
Lone Ranger (idk if that counts though, since i think dynamite entertainment is part of DC)

ill add more to the list when i can remember it.