ozoneocean
KingRidley, you're a bit of a rude young fella aren't you. lol!

Faliat. I feel sorry you feel you have a problem. Unfortunately it seems to always make these things a bit worse when they get too much validation.
Which brings me to:
If you guys are 100% against contrary views in this discussion, we might move it into the General Discussion, I'm sorry but in this part of the forum one of the conditions of having subjects posted is that they're subject to examination and scrutiny. If that's not acceptable to you, then either this part of the forums isn't for you, or for this topic. ;)

I know you've complained about this section just trying to be about someone being right and someone being wrong but sometimes someone is wrong. You've come off as quite closed minded in your replies, perhaps you weren't trying to be that way and only fuel a counterpoint, but went a bit father then you intended. That's just how you're being read right now is all and people are reacting to such, you're usually much more open so i'm just a bit surprised ;)

Anywho i wonder if there is something to Lothar's Society claim, do other countries experience disorders on a population based ratio or is it only the stressed out, all about the individual world that is what we've cast inside America/Similar up status countries?
Hard to conduct this research because not all countries are open about disorders or even aware of them.

I think in alot of countries disorders like this are not recognized and treated with "Work harder, you're just dumb and lazy." I won't point fingers at any country because I don't think that would be fair, but it definitely happens. Especially because alot of cultures aren't lenient on what they deem laziness.

http://hubpages.com/hub/Aspergers-Syndrome-Whats-It-Really-Like


I thought this was particulary well-written, From a lady who has mild AS just addressing what it was like for her on both sides of the debate. I enjoyed reading it.

I think a lot of countries simply don't have the time to indulge people in their personal quirks unless those quirks have a serious* affect on their lives and those around them.
*Higher level problems.

It'd be interesting to see a detailed analysis showing the levels of diagnoses of minor and more modern "disorders" in different countries and across the socio-economic spectrum within them, as well as the resulting cost of treatment, the levels of prescriptions, and the profits of supplying drug companies.

Who could say what the result would be and the reason for it? But I would hypothesise that the wealthier the country, the more cases within it. And I'd guess that the majority of diagnosed cases would be within North America, closely followed by the United Kingdom and a few others. As to the reason for that, I'd return to my initial point: more resources available to indulge and support this type of use of healthcare.

It's harder to guess how it would spread over household income levels, it would depend more on who had better access to health professionals that tended towards these areas. In places like the U.K. that'd mean there would be less differentiation. In the U.S. I'd guess that middle-class and above would have better representation.

interesting article Skull, funny because reading the descriptions of aspers that people haev posted in this thread and other places got me thinking about Einstein and Newton .. they prolly were ,,, whatever this is .
i'm not doubting that people are expeiriencing these feeling , and they are different , hell , i'm even starting to relate to a lot of these "syptoms" described .
my main objection is the calling it a "Syndrome" or something like that . it's more of a personality type isn't it ?

lothar
i'm even starting to relate to a lot of these "syptoms" described

Ah-ha ;)
That's what people tend to do with things like this. It becomes a little like horoscopes in that fashion. But Newton and Einstein would never have fallen into this social category, they were too good at the social game for that; their abilities to mix with people and improve their positions within their chosen fields using those skills are often overlooked.

lothar
Einstein and Newton .. they prolly were ,,, whatever this is .

my main objection is the calling it a "Syndrome" or something like that . it's more of a personality type isn't it ?

dude seriously the personality problems are a result of the syndrome. They probably wouldn't be like that if they didn't have aspergers. Also I don't think that Einstein OR Newton ever had any of these symptoms. Einstein was a little eccentric, yeah, but he especially never had many problems communicating.

ozoneocean
That's what people tend to do with things like this.

That's funny, because so far lothar is the only one doing that. I did alot of this stuff when I was a kid, but I still don't think I do or ever did have aspergers.

lothar
my main objection is the calling it a "Syndrome" or something like that . it's more of a personality type isn't it ?

I think I can agree with this partly, it reminds me of extreme Autism where the 'logical' side of their brain is overdeveloped and the other side that deals with relationships and feelings is kinda small. I think the 'focus' would make them perfect for being famous scientists and mathematicians, but i can't envy them because of the empathy thing....

The only way to find out for sure if you had it would be a trip to a real certified doctor(as opposed to someone on the internet who thinks he's one ^_^). But if you're happy with life right now there's no need too, you'd either know that your awkward social situations have a reason to be aware of or you really were a 'dork'.


I can see Einstien,Newton, etc having this because of the intense logic/focus thing. If you've read any of the personal experiences of a person with AS or Autism they can be sociable and mingle with people. Having it doesn't make them incapable of social interactions or can't have a sense of humor.

Skullbie

lothar
my main objection is the calling it a "Syndrome" or something like that . it's more of a personality type isn't it ?

I think I can agree with this partly,

Interesting that you do, and good ;)

Skullbie
I can see Einstien,Newton, etc having this because of the intense logic/focus thing. If you've read any of the personal experiences of a person with AS or Autism they can be sociable and mingle with people. Having it doesn't make them incapable of social interactions or can't have a sense of humor.

Ah, no. Can be sociable is different from being so good at it that you use it to help you become successful.

Einstein was still described as a loner and an Introvert, He became successful because the man was a revolutionary genius.

Here's an article on Einstein: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2988647.stm [news.bbc.co.uk]

article
Many people with Asperger's are often regarded as being eccentric.

As a child, was a loner and often repeated sentences obsessively until he was seven years old. He was also a notoriously confusing lecturer.

He hardly spoke, was so engrossed in his work that he often forgot to eat and was lukewarmor bad-tempered with the few friends he had.

If no one turned up to his lectures he gave them anyway talking to an empty room. At the age of 50, he had a nervous breakdown brought on by depression and paranoia.

Hahaha, that's a funny, but skewed article. With such things as Aspergers and many other conditions you'll find they latch on to famous people for validation, misquoting aspects of their biographies in order to fit within their descriptions ;)
From what I've read about Einstein, such garbage couldn't be further from the truth.

Rather than Einstein and Newton "showing sings typical of Aspergers", what you've got is a version of internet diagnoses; basically the same as people reading symptoms and saying "Woooooow, that fits mee!!!", except it's reversed in that you have people going through records and biographies and fitting these people with conditions. It's amusing, but also tiresome, especially when you've see that happen as much as I.

Do some more searches of famous people and you'll see some interesting results, if you're looking for associations with various conditions.

You don't need to be highly intuitive of social heirarchies to be famous. Sometimes all you need is for some big important person accidentally discovering your skill or seeing the potential and a good agent, or a famous friend that keeps introducing you to others.

There are no set rules for getting successful or famous. So there must be ways for those with very poor social skills to still get ahead.

ozoneocean
Rather than Einstein and Newton "showing sings typical of Aspergers", what you've got is a version of internet diagnoses; basically the same as people reading symptoms and saying "Woooooow, that fits mee!!!", except it's reversed in that you have people going through records and biographies and fitting these people with conditions.

where are you seeing this?

I look at this and see "Actually Einstein showed some symptoms typical of aspergers/autism. Here, read this and see if you feel the same way." Then there's lothar going "omg i think i mite have this too i have those symptoms." But aside from lothar, no one is pretending like they have (or think they might have) the condition.

Seriously, all grudges aside, point out where we're claiming to have the same symptoms. I need to see where you're getting this.

It's a bit far out to say that Einstein had aspergers just because he showed symptoms.

It would be safer to say that we can assume that he had aspergers, with what we have about him.

Until we find some auto biography that said "Einstein liked to fuck with people's mind and weird them out." and "He also traveled through time to aid the Allies against the Soviets."

KingRidley
Seriously, all grudges aside, point out where we're claiming to have the same symptoms. I need to see where you're getting this.

For some reason you take most of my posts personally, even when that's not indicated in the text, that's where this confusion has arisen. I said:

ozoneocean
basically the same as people reading symptoms and saying...

-People in general, and about any condition; could be depression, gout, leprosy, AIDS, restless leg syndrome, irritable bowel, whatever.
That is the explained meaning of my example.

i was reading about narcissism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder [en.wikipedia.org] and it seems to fit with a lot of these symptoms too. especialy the apparent lack of empathy and it would also account for the many aspers folks claiming to have above average intelligence . the other stuff is just normal stuff.

That's pretty clever reasoning there Lothar. That would account more for those who're self diagnosed or those who are strangely proud to be diagnosed with it.

isn't all this self diagnosis like seeing Elvis in a potato chip?

TheMidge28
isn't all this self diagnosis like seeing Elvis in a potato chip?

i think it's more like astrology , like Ozone pointed out. and going to a professional psychologist is a lot like going to a psychic , they tell you a bunch of stuff about yourself that you already know, and then maybe they tell you what to do , and then they take your money.
there are prolly some good psychologists out there , but i think a lot of them are just idiots with degrees . there seems to be a lot of politics in psychology today , as evidenced by this very thread. if you question the prevailing opinions you are labeled "closed minded" . thats not a very healthy environment for science, but it is an excellent environment for the makers of the drugs to cure these new syndromes , and its job security for the therapists .
and , i shouldn't have to say this, but please don't try to make some comparison to serious mental problems , or medical problems. i'm talking about these fringe disorders . the kind of thing that the doctor could tell you is no big deal and not a problem, but they dont tell you that and let you continue coming in for visits and maybe even buying their drugs. its Far more Profitable for them to find Something ,ANYthing, wrong with you, than for them to tell you are not sick.
ive been to enuf doctors to see that the majority of them are content to talk to you for a few minutes, give you some pills, and book you for another visit . its a business , an INDUSTRY !

ozoneocean
People in general, and about any condition; could be depression, gout, leprosy, AIDS, restless leg syndrome, irritable bowel, whatever.
That is the explained meaning of my example.

Well that clears things up a bit. But it has to count for something that no one (except lothar :/ ) is doing it here.

ozoneocean
That's pretty clever reasoning there Lothar. That would account more for those who're self diagnosed or those who are strangely proud to be diagnosed with it.

I have to disagree on the bounds that he's doing the same kind of self-diagnosis as those same general "people" you talked about. Plus he is deliberately ignoring certain symptoms in favor of this new diagnosis. You can't do that in medicine or psychology.

If someone comes in with a cough, gut pain, and a twitch, and you ignore the twitch just to say they have the flu, then you're taking a real risk by ignoring that symptom. For all you know the cough is an irrelevant symptom, and they're fixing to have a seizure or something.

In short lothar is, again, doing the same thing you condemn others for doing, but it's fine when he does it.

lothar
if you question the prevailing opinions you are labeled "closed minded" .

ive been to enuf doctors to see that the majority of them are content to talk to you for a few minutes, give you some pills, and book you for another visit . its a business , an INDUSTRY !

It was less "questioning prevailing opinions" as it was "declaring prevailing opinions inaccurate" and either way his questions have to stand up to scrutiny from the rest of the community.


Also I certainly hope that you made the conclusion to just stop going to the psychologists. I will agree with you that you don't always need a psychologist for "fringe" disorders. I met with one myself, although he was helping us out with other things as well. I liked him, he was a nice man. Even still, I haven't seen him in years because he's expensive, and there is no need to go.

Still, people with more extreme cases of even fringe disorders could definitely benefit from the psychologist. And people with more extreme conditions (schizophrenia, paranoia, etc) need to see one.

as to the enterprise and study of Psychology and Psychiatry there has been many advances and accomplishments to treating varied mental sicknesses and disorders but there have been many diagnosis which in my personal opinion are the result of neurotic over self-analysis looking for a problem where there is none. I tend to agree with Lothar and Ozone that yes there are serious illnesses which benefit from treatments and prescriptions but there are many supposed "sicknesses" or "syndromes" which are merely labels created by the pharmaceutical and psychiatric field to stir up a social neurosis and trump up business. The general populace reads articles online from the psychiatric establishment and begin doubting their own mental well being. Doubt which if you truly suffered from a condition would not be present.

I remember reading two things somewhere.

1. Only the sane can question their sanity.

2. The insane justify their deviant behaviors.



---------------

off topic is anyone else being violently slowed down on these pages? I really think it's the multiple animated ads on each page. One you can ignore, but when you have one ad that segues into another ad and they each need time to buffer, and you have flash ads on the top of the page and God knows what at the bottom it really messes with my browser. The typing slows down and tabs sometimes don't work right.

Bot these ads are really bothering me.

what ads ?

KR
Well that clears things up a bit. But it has to count for something that no one (except lothar :/ ) is doing it here.

i'm looking back through the thread but i can't figure out exactly what it is you are saying that i'm doing . i never seriously said i think i have aspers . i think i said it in jest, but maybe you didn't get that , and then i said i can relate to a lot of the things described , wich is not saying i think i have it , thers a difference , i can relate to how my dog feels , that's not the same as saying that i think i'm a dog .

KR
1. Only the sane can question their sanity.

2. The insane justify their deviant behaviors.

but when they use a mental disorder to justify their behavior , is that the same as questioning their sanity ? a little paradoxical isnt it ?

lothar
but when they use a mental disorder to justify their behavior , is that the same as questioning their sanity ? a little paradoxical isnt it ?

Most of them don't want to admit they have a mental disorder, hence 'a normal person living in a world of aliens' when they're the real problem. I think Ridley meant those people.
Seems the ones who are the most insane seem to think they're perfectly fine.(deluded egotism, etc. )

yea , i get it . it just sucks for the person who has the mental problem. whatever that mental problem may be. on the one hand if you admit to having a problem then you have to live with being a whatever syndrome , disorder, person. you are furthermore known as "insane" but on the other side if you try to ignore it and rationalize it to yourself you are "even more insane" it's a no win situation.

but i once heard it described something like this -
theres a third option

SANE ----------------------- INSANE
|
|
|
|
UNSANE

not insane , but far from sane ,

lothar
what ads ?


i'm looking back through the thread but i can't figure out exactly what it is you are saying that i'm doing . i never seriously said i think i have aspers . i think i said it in jest, but maybe you didn't get that , and then i said i can relate to a lot of the things described , wich is not saying i think i have it , thers a difference , i can relate to how my dog feels , that's not the same as saying that i think i'm a dog .


but when they use a mental disorder to justify their behavior , is that the same as questioning their sanity ? a little paradoxical isnt it ?

Man the ads for the stupid Hulk movie and the banners all over the pages.



And looking back myself I realize what happened. You went from "hahaha aspergers is ridiculous" to "okay even I'm starting to relate to these symptoms" in a good two posts. It was the sudden change of heart what threw me off. Also true, you can relate to a dog without thinking you are one (even though there are people who still do that).

So yeah I correct myself: No one is claiming to suddenly have aspergers. Which is good.

So sorry about that accusation lothar.




I don't think these quotes really apply to 'fringe' disorders. They really don't do as much to alter your perceptions of the world as some of the 'bigger' conditions do. Continued after next quote.

Skullbie
Most of them don't want to admit they have a mental disorder, hence 'a normal person living in a world of aliens' when they're the real problem. I think Ridley meant those people.
Seems the ones who are the most insane seem to think they're perfectly fine.(deluded egotism, etc. )

Something like this, yeah. It's like how a psychopath killer can murder and gut people, but in his mind it's because he's getting revenge for some perceived wrongdoing from years back. In their minds there is nothing wrong with it.

TheMidge28
I tend to agree with Lothar and Ozone that yes there are serious illnesses which benefit from treatments and prescriptions but there are many supposed "sicknesses" or "syndromes" which are merely labels created by the pharmaceutical and psychiatric field to stir up a social neurosis and trump up business.

Ah, but what drugs company would succeed in creating a drug that's for a condition/disorder/difference that nobody really knows much about?
Researchers are only beginning to realise what is obvious to most diagnosed aspies by now. That there's strong evidence of genetic links.

The research is slow because of people's attitudes towards it. It was only made an official diagnosis in 1994. Despite serious research starting about half a century earlier. There's still psychologists that don't know about it. And the more research people do into it, the more certain it will become whether it's a disability, the next stage in human evolution or just a personality problem.

It's been difficult for me to come up with enough decent examples for people to look at. Those without a diagnosis or aren't being tested don't understand it, and those with it or being tested with it don't know how to say what it's like without it sounding stupid to the listeners/readers listening/reading because of their social inexperience getting in the way. Plus there's also the fact that there's no fixed way of dealing with someone with A.S. Some have worse issues than others.

One of my problems is, I have a flurry of words going around in my head. It's kinda like The Crystal Maze. You're inside the dome of sentences. You keep seeing certain words flashing in front of your face emblazoned on tokens. You reach out to grab them but you just can't get them. So you grab a word as similar as you can get to it because you're running out of time trying to grab the word you want. In the end you put the words together to make a sentence and you'll at least end up with a phrase that just doesn't convey the right message the way you want it to. At worst you'll end up saying completely the wrong thing and getting into trouble for it, or saying almost nothing and hoping that the person/people you're talking to can guess what you're on about. Which they usually don't.
Last week it happened to me on the car ride down to Runcorn when one of the multicoloured straps came loose from the roof rack and was dangling by my window.

I don't think scruffing your hair up, making frustrated growls and shouting "STRIPES!" is the best way to let someone know that their stuff is about to fall out all over the M8.

Faliat
I don't think scruffing your hair up, making frustrated growls and shouting "STRIPES!"

Bobcat Goldthwait? Man, you were cool in the 80s... what happened to you?

Sounds like you need some counselling to help you straighten out those mental pathways and help you better express yourself. The ability is obviously there, you just have trouble with it in a stress situation. Not really that uncommon a situation, but clearly awkward for those who have a problem with it, like yourself.

That's probably already part of his treatment. Along with medicine.

Actually, I'm the only one in my immediate family group that ISN'T on long term prescription drugs. It looked like I was going to when I was told there was a possibility of me having psychosis, but according to them I didn't. Still seemed to me like they were trying to get me on antipsychotics before then. Seemed like an entire month went by with discussions on which medication I could try if I chose to take them.

But I'm wary of all pills I take. And so far the only meds I've ever really taken long term have either been antibiotics or painkillers for infections and injuries.

One time I was putting up flags in my head because of how willing the doctors were to give me antibiotics. However, in the end it was all justified. Despite the fact that one recurring infection was caused by another problem that the GPs completely ignored.