Vagabond
Do you maybe think that the reason that these disorders are creeping up is that instead of "pharmaceuticals finding the cure," it's more a matter of a we've finally found the best way to fuck over our kids "in the name of helping them" situation? And that's not even factoring in the fact that we're finally starting to understand what chemicals and hormonal levels in the brain can do to someone...

A great way to make sure a kid gets OCD or ADD is to constantly supervise him in an environment where he's always learning in a scholarly manner. As in, not getting to aimlessly play outside/in groups... or in completely blunt terms: not giving the kids a childhood.

I think the best way to think of the milder conditions (which would exclude depression and schitzophrenia most definitely) in physical terms is... picture yourself missing a finger. Now, you're still a human being with basic needs and desires. You're still someone who can have a function in society. And you're still a person that can complete objectives. But you're gonna have to find a way to work with your disability. There's going to be things that you'll need to learn how to do differently, but that doesn't for a second mean that you can't do them. And that also doesn't mean that you can belittle a condition as, "well, everyone's got problems so get over it." That's completely ignorant and ridiculous on anyone's part to say.

Well said, although the whole "one finger missing" anglogy was bad. even without one extra finger people can still type well, hold objects, etc... no diffculity there at all. so that was an poor example to use, in my opinion.

lothar
Yes, i can !
ADD - does not exist
OCD - does not exist
Bipolar disorder - does not exist
aspergers syndrome - does not exist

this is what scares the hell out of me when i hear people talk about these "diseases" ; modern mental science is trying to dope everyone into being the same !!! they are targeting the most vulnerable segment of the population- CHILDREN and telling them they are SICK just because they are different ! this is wrong.

i have been through this myself. i have been diagnosed and doped. i have been on anti-depressants and anti-psychotics. And i experience most of these "symptoms" of Aspergers on a daily basis. it's not an illness. it's called "being HUMAN" . perhaps you have trouble socializing , or you are a little eccentric , or just slightly more intelligent and lack the patience to deal with stupid people , but you are not Sick !!!

my advice -
Get over it !

No, you can't.

The brain-patterns of a (correctly) diagnosed ADD patient differ from the norm.
The brain-patterns of a (correctly) diagnosed OCD patient differ from the norm.
The brain-patterns of a (correctly) diagnosed patient with bi-polar disorder differ from the norm.

I don't even feel a need to address any of your other points. (though part of that is because I don't particularly understand autism and the differentials ;) ) The very fact that you can think differently shows how uninformed you are.

I can't say anything about your diagnosis, or the misdiagnosis thereof, but... getting an anti-psychotic or an anti-depressant for Aspergers sounds sketchy to say the least.

And, again... you can't expect anyone to take you seriously when you actually think your being "a little eccentric" can compare to the mania and then subsequent depression of someone with bi-polar disorder. Good God, that's offensive.

(and sorry if the analogy didn't completely work. My intent was that, with any kind of disability, you have to learn how to do things differently from the norm at least. Not that you couldn't do it as well. My bad.)

Vagabond
The very fact that you can think differently shows how uninformed you are.

or maybe i'm just not Brainwashed enough !

i've been there, i've known a lot of people who have been there, and all i'm going to say is that it has been my experience that MOST of the time you are better off without all the doctors and diagnoses and attention related to these questionable "disorders"

do whatever you want, if you want to believe you have a problem, it's not hard to find a doctor willing to diagnose it. if it makes it easier for you .
i'm not going to argue this anymore.

i don't agree with modern psychiatry.
i choose not to be a Guinea pig !

so you don't agree with dx such as schizophrenia or bipolar?

Vagabond
and sorry if the analogy didn't completely work. My intent was that, with any kind of disability, you have to learn how to do things differently from the norm at least. Not that you couldn't do it as well. My bad.

and I believe the point of the people who's saying the reason why those disabilities isn't THAT bad like society is making them out to be.....

is because learning how to do things a different way isn't so bad at all. Doing things differently isn't so bad at all. Being "different" isn't some kind of vulgar ugly thing.

And even then, disabled people can do plenty of things the same way as an "normal" person anyway...

take an Deaf person for instance. there's hearing aids and all that jazz. they even have hearing aids made for infants.
So deaf people can grow up knowing what sound is, and they can still learn how to speak first before they actually learned sign.
in fact there's actually plenty of deaf people who's had that kind of upbringing--wearing hearing aids from a very young age, learning to speak first before they actually got around to sign language. sometimes they NEVER learn sign language, being able to hear people's voices with the aid of hearing aids and able to speak perfectly.
So basically despite an "disability", some deaf kids grew up in the same way an hearing person would.... learning how to walk, then learning how to speak... associating sounds with certain things, etc.......

So I'm sure you can imagine the bewilderment that some deaf people go though when they have somebody who says "OH, I'm SO sorry!!" once they find out that the person just happens to be deaf. Sorry for what?
Sorry about the fact that we were basically brought up in the same manner as any other avenge kid out there, functions just fine in society, enjoys everything that any hearing person would, even music? It's just one little fact that we can turn off all sounds and enjoy silence for a while with the simple flick of our hearing aid switch that makes us a little bit unique... that's all.

It's just the same for people with milder cases of austism, bipolar disorder, etc.... They see things differently, but fuctions fine in society and it's just something that makes them unique.. AND HUMAN.

I'm sure you get where I'm going with this.

I do believe that the way people are treating these disorders are bullshit, but I don't think they don't exist. I never denied that I had asperger, and I don't give a rat's ass about the fact that I do either.
My parents gave me riddilin (is that how you spell it?) in elementary school and I took the shit til 8th grade. I didn't even start making progress until I was off of it and tried controlling myself. So far so good.
And lothar, put down the weed (note that this is coming from a guy who has a pot avy, that's saying something) and stop accusing everything of being a conspiracy set up by the government.

lothar
i'm not going to argue this anymore.

Good, because you're an idiot. Opinions are fine. But your statements are bullshit and anti-productive to this topic.

If some mod wants to edit this to take out the name calling fine, but chances are you damn well know I'm right.

i want to get one thing straight here ; NOWHERE did i say there was any government conspiracy . the whole thing is pretty out in the open , theres nothing conspiratorial about it!
it's very simple; drug companies make more money if more people are "sick" That is not a conspiracy, it's economics, it's capitalism!

Corupt C - how are your statements productive? you haven't contibuted anything to this thread, you're just disagreeing with people , and there is very little substance to your posts !

CorruptComics
If some mod wants to edit this to take out the name calling fine, but chances are you damn well know I'm right.

The mods of this forum aren't around now. But let's get one thing straight: They are just normal comic creators here like everyone else, as am I. We have a small bit of extra responsibility because we're nice people who want to try and help the community run smoothly and stay friendly.
So please try and keep things on a friendly level OK?

Lothar's opinions are as valid as anyone else's, in fact more valuable where he speaks from personal experience.
But Bi Polar: used to be called Manic Depression; well documented, been around a very long time, can be very harmful, but the definition has broadened in the last 20 years or so and to include very mild manifestations that wouldn't have been considered once upon a time. So Lothar does have a good point.

-not entering the the debate again, just trying to smooth things out.

ozoneocean
But Bi Polar: used to be called Manic Depression; well documented, been around a very long time, can be very harmful, but the definition has broadened in the last 20 years or so and to include very mild manifestations that wouldn't have been considered once upon a time. So Lothar does have a good point.

That kind of thing is like ADD, which back in the day was diagnosed to children who were suicidal. Now they pass around the term to any kid who seems remotely disinterested in class or overactive. It's normal to be that way. It's not quite as normal to want to hang yourself when you're five years old.

mechanical_lullaby

ozoneocean
But Bi Polar: used to be called Manic Depression; well documented, been around a very long time, can be very harmful, but the definition has broadened in the last 20 years or so and to include very mild manifestations that wouldn't have been considered once upon a time. So Lothar does have a good point.

That kind of thing is like ADD, which back in the day was diagnosed to children who were suicidal. Now they pass around the term to any kid who seems remotely disinterested in class or overactive. It's normal to be that way. It's not quite as normal to want to hang yourself when you're five years old.

Yeah. I would have to agree. to me it's unethical to try to "cure" kids who are simply overactive or have an short attention span, as seeing that's just WHO they are at the time. and over time as they mature they may take control of their "problems"... so for those people, is medical attention and "cures" even needed? I don't think so.
To me it seems like it's the parents themselves just wanting their children to stop being overactive because they can't handle an hyper child 24/7....then they try to change the way their children are, forgetting that the whole purpose of being an actual parent is to love your children just the way they are, to learn how to manage your life in a whole new way. even if inconvient at times. not so that you can have mini-versions of yourself that sits quietly and does as they are told.

However, say if an five year old is suicidal then I can agree that they may do need medical attention, and to add to that they may have to look into reasons in the family life that may have affected the five-year-old into being sudical.

ozoneocean
Lothar's opinions are as valid as anyone else's, in fact more valuable where he speaks from personal experience.

You're right. Lothars opinion that these mental disorders are fake is 100% plausible and I should not do anything to try and denounce his highly qualified views.

CorruptComics
You're right. Lothars opinion that these mental disorders are fake is 100% plausible and I should not do anything to try and denounce his highly qualified views.

No. I see you just don't understand...

Ah well, just keep up the nasty tone and see where it leads! >:)

People are allowed to have different views, you included. They are not stupid simply because you disagree with them. As we mature we learn that this is so. Express your different views but don't attempt to insult and ridicule others in the process, it makes the forums unpleasant for everyone else.
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heh, I can fit in my reply to Sub here without unlocking the thread :)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As to BK's brother and Crumb, that fits in fine with the points a lot of us are advocating; if they have trouble that seriously affects their lives, this is a bad thing that needs treatment. Of course! but there is a current fad though of labelling any "unusual" personality traits as "disorders", this is something you have to realise, children are being diagnosed a little too freely, just have a look at the "misdiagnoses" statistics; it's frightening how to many psychiatrists these syndromes are basically interchangeable.

If people clearly have problems that seriously affect their lives and those around them, they need help, otherwise, leave them alone. I'm sure we all have first had experience of people who'd fit into the category of genuinely needing help, I know I have, and they often get it. But who are these perfect "normal" people they're compared against anyway?

... not to mention, when you start calling somebody an idiot in a debate, it means that what was once a logical debate has become a petty playground argument to you. When I see name calling, it becomes easier to ignore that person because it usually means they don't have any intelligent arguments left.

It is my opinion that people don't die from cancer.

My brother has a mild form of autism. Although he seems to be going along fine now (well, relatively speaking) this was after a rather difficult childhood. Most people though would not know that he's autistic...he may just appear "quirky" or "weird."

I've heard of worse cases of autism so I've considered my brother's case to be mild. I think the most obvious sign of his autism and one that has affected my family the most is his inability to let go. He hated his elementary school because he saw everybody there as being mean and cruel to him. The kids made fun of him and he felt that the adults didn't do anything to help him. It took four years plus a trespassing charge for him to finally stop obsessing over it and going back to the school to "set things right." Before that the whole subject of his elementary school was taboo in the family. He dreamt about setting things right. He wanted them to hurt just as much as he did. The problem for him was that everyone else had already moved on but he could not understand why this isn't as big of a deal to them as it is for him.

There are holes in the walls made by him because he missed my face and hit it instead. During a particularly long fight (6+ months) I used to stack things against the door because I was afraid that in the middle of the night, he would wake up and be suddenly seized with the desire to "set things right."

Thinking back to our childhood, I remember how I used to be so embarrassed by my brother. My mother used to sign us up for Chinese classes together and during one particular class, he was mad at me. I wouldn't acknowledge him in class though so he kept punching and pushing me. The teacher didn't know what to do and my classmates weren't sure either. So we all pretended that my brother was not pushing and punching me while the teacher was teaching about Chinese characters.

My brother will eventually be able to function fine in society. I have no doubt at all that he will one day get a job and be able to live independently. But he will have more difficulties then most people. It will be harder for him to make friends because it will take a certain kind of person to befriend him. And for now, we do not want him to drive a car or anything that could lead to an unfortunate accident that could have been prevented if he didn't get angry and try to "set things right."

So on one hand, I object to the notion that autism doesn't exist. Because if autism doesn't exist, I would like someone to explain to me what has been going on for the last twenty years.

I also object to the notion that they're just like everyone else only they think differently and that if people would stop making such a big deal, they can function just fine on their own. My family has never given my brother any drugs or counseling when he was younger. In fact, he didn't even know he was autistic until he was older. But if by functioning fine you're talking about functioning like me who doesn't have autism...then no.

Finally, it ticks me off when people think they have autism when really they're just socially awkward. Socially awkward or the inability to socialize well does not mean you have autism. If that's the height of your disorder then you do not know what autism is.

On another note, this is just a reminder that the D&D forum is a very different beast. Sometimes we say things out of the heat of the moment. If you find yourself feeling very angry or frustrated, then it's time for you to take a break. An Internet forum is not worth getting angry about.

So please remain civil and do not resort to calling names.

I'm locking this thread. The topic is too heated, and it's gotten out of hand.

-W

*in the time that this remains unlocked* name-calling and stupid well-this-is-why-you're-stupid arguments demean what is supposed to be an intelligent discussion. respect each other. GEEZE.