violence, gore, and some nudity.

Only some? Did I watch a different show than you? I guess the fan service was a little less without the OVA (the OVA seemed to serve no purpose other than to deliver more fan service), but it was still pretty blatant and in abundance. Also, be cautious with series like Elfen Lied. If you have any objections to the Japanese obsession with pedophilia, you may object to the themes and tone of this series (which is probably why ADV never picked up the OVA).

isukun

violence, gore, and some nudity.

Only some? Did I watch a different show than you? I guess the fan service was a little less without the OVA (the OVA seemed to serve no purpose other than to deliver more fan service), but it was still pretty blatant and in abundance. Also, be cautious with series like Elfen Lied. If you have any objections to the Japanese obsession with pedophilia, you may object to the themes and tone of this series (which is probably why ADV never picked up the OVA).

true... there was more than 'some' nudity. but I dunno, to me the focus of the show strayed from the point that there was nudity for fanservice. Actually I took the nudity as being actually used for the plot rather than fan service, it portrayed how the diclonius were being treated by the humans.

...I watched it a long time ago. Should rewatch it.

well, i put it in the order of intensity: violence, gore, nudity
there was a lot of violence, good amount of gore, and some nudity compared the the two

uhmm, I looked for Elfen lied first and only watched the first two episodes.

Its really disapointing, it starts really great, you see a naked girl with some eva like helmet slashing people brutally, then she is shot in the head and becomes TOTALLY stupid O_o'... at least she killed an even more stupid girl in the begining 9_9 lol.

And there was a LOT of uncalled naked breast poking and nudity that in my oppinion is NOT there to help on the plot at all. (And the girl is what, 12-15 years old?)

Nudity, gore and violence are at the same level of intensity :P


Oh and I didnt like much One Piece, found the kid to be annoying to the extreme, though i cant tell if it was because of the dubbing

mlai
Fooly Cooly is one of those rare animes that breaks through the anime-cartoon barrier. You don't have to like anime to like FLCL. You just have to like cartoons.

I love FLCL, but I can't rightly agree with that. FLCL was VERY Japanese. That doesn't mean you have to like anime, but you have to get the gist of a lot of the random japanese references. It took me forever to realize the whole "The King's Ears are really Donkey's Ears" bit. I mean yeah you can "Get it" without the knoweledge but it's like watching only The Empire Strikes Back. You can enjoy it but often times you just sit and scrtch your head. Though with FLCL often times you jes sit and scratch your head anyways.



And as for the Elfen Lied debate. I love Elfen Lied but seeing as how I don't really have any sexual desire towards drawn women, anime or non, the fanservice completely rolled off me. I like the fact that it lcked the fear to show it because trying to be "artful" in disguising them would only serve to give the dicloni a more human sensibility but the fact was for Lucy she wasn't human she was a monster and as such was held by different ingrained instincts. The girls are naked because clothing them makes them human. We don't give monkey's pants, though sometimes we spare a diaper or two. The regard Lucy as little more then a super monkey that talks. And kills.

Plus if you're turned on by a naked chick covered in blood and killing people and hearing those nice little "squelch" noises then maybe the fact that there IS nudity in Elfen Lied is the least of your worries. Even half mast is a little much guys.

glenfx
Oh and I didnt like much One Piece, found the kid to be annoying to the extreme, though i cant tell if it was because of the dubbing

Jesus Christ on a cracker - you watched the dub? o.O 4Kids mutilated One Piece when they dubbed it - voices sound screwed up, they've changed all the actual guns into cheesy waterguns, in one episode they've copy-pasted American cookies on top of perfectly innocent rice balls, the intro-song is not translated; it's torn to pieces, stomped on and changed into some stupid hip-hop track when the original song was perfectly lovely - they've cut out whole arcs of episodes, at one time as much as 80 episodes in a row, because they wanted to get to another point in the story faster, and, and, and -

- and I'll stop ranting now. Really. But if you ever decide to give One Piece another chance, go for subbed episodes, not the dub. For the love of all things holy, not the dub. (Thankfully, it's in the process of being re-dubbed, by a company hopefully more respectful of the source material.)

However, Luffy IS a bit of a dork - the kind who thinks that food and adventure are the only things really worth thinking about - and if you're not too fond of anime with somewhat superpowered main characters, One Piece might not be for you, dub or no dub.

Has anyone recommended Full Metal Alchemist yet? If not, I'm recommending it. The first episode is a little silly, but it shapes up after that and becomes serious. Quite an unexpected ending, and there's a follow-up movie (which I haven't seen yet.)

Oh/Ah My Goddess is a funny show, and one of the few decent "fantasy girlfriend" shows.

El-Hazard is also a great comic fantasy. It was re-released on DVD recently just before its parent company of Geneon went under.

glenfx
uhmm, I looked for Elfen lied first and only watched the first two episodes.

Its really disapointing, it starts really great, you see a naked girl with some eva like helmet slashing people brutally, then she is shot in the head and becomes TOTALLY stupid O_o'... at least she killed an even more stupid girl in the begining 9_9 lol.

And there was a LOT of uncalled naked breast poking and nudity that in my oppinion is NOT there to help on the plot at all. (And the girl is what, 12-15 years old?)

Nudity, gore and violence are at the same level of intensity :P

You're judging the entire series based on the first two episodes? o.O
That doesnt do justice to anything.

Plus of course you wont understand why it has to do with plot because you probably
left after going "WTF? where did the killing go?" I wont explain anything cause I
hate spoiling people, so maybe open up and watch the rest.

there's about 10 more episodes you havent seen by the way. And It's not all
breast poking. seriously.

Also, English Dub usually sucks. Not all, I can say I've seen some perfect dubbed ones,
but most are disappointing.

Sidwarrious
And as for the Elfen Lied debate. I love Elfen Lied but seeing as how I don't really have any sexual desire towards drawn women, anime or non, the fanservice completely rolled off me. I like the fact that it lcked the fear to show it because trying to be "artful" in disguising them would only serve to give the dicloni a more human sensibility but the fact was for Lucy she wasn't human she was a monster and as such was held by different ingrained instincts. The girls are naked because clothing them makes them human. We don't give monkey's pants, though sometimes we spare a diaper or two. The regard Lucy as little more then a super monkey that talks. And kills.

Plus if you're turned on by a naked chick covered in blood and killing people and hearing those nice little "squelch" noises then maybe the fact that there IS nudity in Elfen Lied is the least of your worries. Even half mast is a little much guys.

THANK YOU. exactly my point.

I also don't get on the "Hate dub" bandwagons a lot of modern anime fans seem to have. I don't approve of anything not voiced in English. Because I don't speak it. To me listening to a jap track you can hear emotion yes, but that's it. You don't hear words and you don't know what words carry what inflection because their pattern of speaking is different and so you can't judge it accurately. That's not to say jap VA's aren't good or the track isn't better, but I think anyone who doesn't speak the language can truly judge correctly. That being said, as I watched most everything subbed before I buy it(and I actually am starting to amass a respectable collection)I have heard my fair share of jap dubs and there are some I really like and some I know are laughable. Elfen Lid is pretty flat in both Jap and English. A dub that's not bad, but funny, is Hellsing's. I love the guy who does Anderson. Amd I've heard many very bad English dubs-Devilman!
I don't wanna start a debate over it-that's just my feelings on the subject. You can like the original but I don't think you can fairly say it's "better" you can only say you LIKE it better. I like Four Brothers more then I like The Godfather, doesn't mean Four Brothers is actually a better movie. I just hate when people bash dubs. But then I do know some minor dub actors and I know how hard they actually work at it and do their damnedest. So I'm biased anyways. Teehee.

1. IMO, FLCL has no distinctly Jpnese elements in it besides the Jpnese food, Jpnese clothes, Jpnese buildings, and Jpnese cars. What I mean is that the story and the characters are universal. Contrast with say, a samurai series, which would feel very Jpnese.

2. Condemning arousal from animated characters is the same as condemning those who read erotic literature. What I'm saying is that you're being shallow, ignorant, and bigoted if you see that as sexually deviant. The world has many classic works of literature centered on the erotic; it's an essential human condition which bears no shame in exploring.
I feel weird defending it, because anime nudity is so not on the same level as the kamasutra or the dream of the red chamber. But it must be done on principle; you trash 1 you trash all.

In FLCL they make a LOT of Japenese references. If you were watchign it and not o nthe internet and knew nothing of anime could you tell me the signifigance of Haruhana wearing a bunny outfit and saying Daikon 5(or 7, can't remember)?

Not really. And there's a difference in thinking the drawings in the kama sutra are sexy and reading and knowing the teachings of the kama sutra. By your logic if I don't like porkchops then I don't like bacon because of a vague similarity in origin. I personally don't think that drawn women are sexy. It's just not my thing. Takes different strokes to move the world mlai you flagrant nazi(joking, obviously) and if women covered in blood while naked and murdering give you a stiffy then by all means good for you.

And Erotic Literature is different entirely. That's an imagined thrill rather then an aesthetic one. Same as Dungeons and Dragons is NOT the same as video games.

And there's a difference in thinking the drawings in the kama sutra are sexy and reading and knowing the teachings of the kama sutra.

mlai was never arguing otherwise. He was simply stating that you can't write off something as sexual deviancy just because it doesn't appeal to you. People have been getting off to artwork longer than you or I have been alive, so there must be some appeal to it. The fact of the matter is that Elfen Lied could have gotten it's point across just as well without Nyu grabbing other girl's breasts or showing off the nudity at every possible moment, especially considering it was a TV series. It isn't limited to just scenes of violence or the diclonus being tested or tortured. Yes, there are some heavy themes in the show, but there is also a fairly sizeable amount of fan service, as well.

As for the dub debate, I took four years of Japanese and I know a few small time dub actors. I have a great deal of respect for the professional voice actors out there, but very little for dub actors. They tend to either be union or completely inexperienced. They work for less money and with good reason. Not all Japanese dubs are perfect, in fact, you do get some poor voice work even out of the Japanese, but in about 99% of the cases I've seen, I still prefer the subtitled versions over the dubs.

For one thing, the Japanese actually spend some time auditioning to find voice actors they think fit the roles. American publishers tend to rely on unionized dubbing groups and the results are often that you have every show from a particular company using the same core cast regardless of the genre or tone.

Anime is a product of Japan and certain portrayals simply work better in the native tongue. Japanese people speak differently than we do and many American distributors try to capture those differences in the dub and it usually sounds unnatural or annoying.

Directors are also often inexperienced or hired from the original distribution company. They usually aren't people who are familiar with acting or actors. They don't like to spend a lot of time doing extra takes to get things right and are willing to settle for flat dialog so long as actors don't flub their lines. You also get more of a small studio approach with voice acting where the actors recite their lines individually with nothing to really play off of.

that makes sense no wonder these talents always sound the same for dubs.

People also get off to feet and piss. Deviancy is a matter of perspective. I'm not this, big deal. The point I was trying to get across was "It's just tits, get over it". And what I said would be deviant is thinking that she's sexy covered in blood and killing. That's it. Go read my post. I never said you can't like women naked in drawings. I said I didn't and then I said if you think it's sexy she's covered in blood and killing something might be wrong with you. Different things. Same as watching porn is different from watching beastiality. What the girl is doing can and should greatly affect your desire. I assume I can say that?

And as for Jap dubs, you took Japanese. So you can understand it right? So you aren't in my target audience. You can differentiate. But me listening to Japanese is like listening to gibberish. And I said you could prefer a dub or sub but I said the only way you can honestly judge which is better is if you spoke the language. I know plenty of dubs I prefer in Japanese. I by FAR prefer Excel Saga in Japanese, but that's mostly because Jessica Caville(I think that was her name. It was Jessica C. I know...)'s voice drove me NUTS. She wasn't a bad VA, and I thought she captured the spirit of Excel very well, but her voice gave me migraines. Same with Get Backers. By far prefer the Japanese, but the English dub was just bad. The "Jag-on" worked my nerves.

But there are many dubs I honestly think are better in English because the tone of the voices is just wrong. Naruto being the biggest example. Sasuke and Rock Lee's voices are just waaaaaay too deep. For a 12 year old they sound like they're 40. And plus in English Rock Lee sounds like a parody of Bruce Lee, I wonder why...In Japanese he sounds like a sumo wrestler.

but that's me. Those are my opinions on those shows.

Well, ive always considered that if you get hooked in the first episode, then its a good show, if you dont get hooked on the first TWO episodes, then it wont be any good at all.


For the nakedness side, I DONT mind nudity if its done right, but having two episodes with a girl poking her breasts, the kid "changing" her clothes, she showing her breasts constantly, etc... then the producers are using that element to hook horny teens to the show and im not one of them, i prefer to watch something with better taste.


Full Metal Alchemist was really great from begining to end (By the way, does anyone know if there is something after the end of the series?, did Edward find a way to return to his world?) :P


(Oh My Goddess, El-Hazard) Not my kind of anime ^__^

Ah, flcl Jpnese in-jokes. That's a minor part of the series, though.

I don't think there's a difference between erotic drawings and erotic writings. Both are used to guide your imagination to arouse you. When you look at a drawing you're not thinking that the drawing is hot (the lines and painted colors); your mind is processing the drawing into an erotic image/situation in your head. With literature, it's words.

In fact, words should be considered even more sexually deviant, since they are even more abstract than drawings.

Eroticism conveyed in violence is also a classic literary theme. Ever heard of Dracula? I can then also think that Guernica is condoning bestiality and ask for it to be taken off museum walls and burned in the public square.

I admit I'm being pointedly hostile in my 1st reply, so I'll take that back. I didn't have to say it that way. By the same token, one shouldn't make generalizations where the meaning of art is concerned because that's a very slippery slope. Granted I personally don't think much of Elfen as art, but there you have it.

For the record I really disliked Elfen Lied and its characters, especially the "cute" version of the "heroine."

glenfx
Full Metal Alchemist was really great from begining to end (By the way, does anyone know if there is something after the end of the series?, did Edward find a way to return to his world?) :P

There's a feature length movie sequel to the series - it's called Full Metal Alchemist: The Conqueror of Shamballa . I haven't seen it (I really ought to, because I love FMA), but rumour has it it's very good.

And as for the dub debate....

My only real hate when it comes to English dubs is the 4Kids dub of One Piece - because it ruined the series. It didn't just give them crappy dub voices (dub!Sanji's voice haunts me in my sleep), it wrecked the whole thing. It censored the series - which is bad in itself, but if they'd chosen to bleep out Sanji's cursing, I'd be somewhat okay with that (even though the worst he says is "shitty" *rolls eyes*). But that's not it. Oh no - they censored out all the blood; they painted all the guns purple and green so that they'd look like water guns; they painted chocolate chip cookies over perfectly innocent and unoffensive riceballs (and all of these paintjobs were extremely badly done); they completely cut out the Little Garden arc (which comprised something like 7 episodes, and had some major revelations about the plot); they cut out large bits of some episodes and changed the script so that some things which were logical and not offensive in the least in the original turned out to be completely stupid and illogical in the dub.

And so on. They even cut out the Skypeia arc - which was 43 episodes long. Thankfully, 4Kids won't be dubbing One Piece any more.

And on the whole, I prefer subbed versions of most anime, because as it has been said, the voice actors are individually cast because they fit the character in the Japanese version - the original voices simply fit better. Also, many dubs are bad quality, and censored besides. Hellsing is a pretty good dub, though, and they haven't censored out the blood, like they did in One Piece (if they had, they would have had about 10 minutes worth of it left :P) I like Crispin Freeman as Alucard.

glenfx
Well, ive always considered that if you get hooked in the first episode, then its a good show, if you dont get hooked on the first TWO episodes, then it wont be any good at all.


For the nakedness side, I DONT mind nudity if its done right, but having two episodes with a girl poking her breasts, the kid "changing" her clothes, she showing her breasts constantly, etc... then the producers are using that element to hook horny teens to the show and im not one of them, i prefer to watch something with better taste.


Full Metal Alchemist was really great from begining to end (By the way, does anyone know if there is something after the end of the series?, did Edward find a way to return to his world?) :P


(Oh My Goddess, El-Hazard) Not my kind of anime ^__^

I've seen plenty of shows where I did the same as you and stopped watching after a few episodes, only to go back and surprise myself :D

If Elfen lied's main focus was to be a perverted anime then I think the covers will
show... I actually won the DVD, but the cover looked awesome and I was recommended it.
but if the producers did have an intent like that (I think they did to an extent) then it was probably covered in that episode, cause from what i recall, Nyu is pretty much dressed for the rest of the series. from what I recall...*gotta dig up those DVDs XP

the FMA anime concludes with the movie like frostflowers said,
it's pretty good, IMO. But If you like Fullmetal Alchemist, Read the Manga.
The anime started out following the manga plot line but went on its own tangent,
the manga is going towards a completely different line and is really awesome...
plus it hasnt ended yet XD

Yeah you can watch the 1st 2 episodes of Elfen, judge it on the fanservice scenes in those alone, and miss the rest of it which would be what the real show is about. Personally, the last episode contains the most memorable animated hug I've seen in my life (just a hug, no more than that). Considering the fact that I don't like Elfen or its characters, that's a huge compliment on my part.

I'll admit the Jap in-jokes are somewhat minimal but they are there a decent amount if in nothing else then in Naota's fathers rants about Eva(Since Gainax is the master of self-fellatio). You don't have to get them, but personally I was bothered when they threw up something I knew was a reference but had no idea what it was. Hence the first time I watched FLCL I didn't care for it much and then the second time having fallen into being a more hardcore Japanophile I wasn't bothered.

And I stick to my argument that the two are separate same as Dungeon Siege is different from Dungeon Man(A text based game from Homestarrunner.com) And you still miss the point being as I am not saying it's wrong to be turned on by naked chicks who happen to be drawn, but it's wrong when they are doing certain things. And once again Deviancy is hard to define since really we're all very different. My def is anything that strays from my norm is deviant.

If you still don't think it matters what the girl is doing how about I send you a series of drawings of an interpreted Dirk Diggler getting fucked by some chick on top who reaches into his chest, pulls out his heart and then shits in the open wound. Disgusting? Yes. But I'd like to know if you could still keep your stiffy.

I know that's extreme, but Elfen Lied can be extreme.
Plus you know I love you mlai. You're fluffy.

And I'm saying that I don't like Elfen Lied much, but you can't make generalizations about what is art/literature, and what is deviancy to be condemned. Imagine you lived in 1897 when Dracula was published. You can argue that not only is it sexually deviant, it also encourages sexual violence against genteel women and is a guide to home invasion (for the purpose of sexual violence against said women).

I saw a dead rat on the sidewalk once, and I sketched it. He was not very fluffy but I thought he was very handsome.

What I was trying to say was "Let's be mature guys, it's just tits." That's what I was trying to convey man. And let's stop this political correctnes bullshit. I can think whatever I want to think. Let's stop this before it turns into "You can't tell little kids to be quiet because who are you to judge what's loud?"

In my mind I can differentiate the things you talk about easily. Just because you think they all need to be lumped together doesn't mean we all gots to.

That being said this is getting stupid. All I am saying is give peace a chance.

And did you eat it? I'm southern. We eat roadkill. Otherwise people stop making stereotypes about us.

It censored the series - which is bad in itself, but if they'd chosen to bleep out Sanji's cursing, I'd be somewhat okay with that (even though the worst he says is "shitty" *rolls eyes*).

Cursing in Japanese doesn't really work the same way as it does in English. Japanese has a number of different levels of politeness in the way you address other people. You reach to low on the scale and your speach can have a derogatory tone to it. English translators throw in curse words for emphasis, but the Japanese dialog rarely, if ever, translates literally to English curse words. Fan subbers love to use curse words for emphasis since they don't care about offendng people, but in the case of commercial translators, they can just as easily substitute a more child-friendly word without changing the intent and while staying just as true to the original Japanese dialog. So with any translation of an anime, particularly a TV show like One Piece, if a translated version doesn't use curse words, that doesn't mean it's censored.

Nyu is pretty much dressed for the rest of the series. from what I recall...*gotta dig up those DVDs

Nyu isn't the only one who gets naked and the OVA probably ranks in with the most fan service (takes place between episodes 10 and 11, I think), although you do still get quite a few nudie shots with the younger characters and in the flashback scenes.

And let's stop this political correctnes bullshit

I didn't bring it up because of any amount of political correctness, I brought it up because you originally were arguing against the idea that the series had a lot of fan service in it on account of A) you personally are not attracted to 2D women, and B) you don't see any sex appeal in a woman covered in blood. That's all well and good, but there are quite a few people out there who can easily get their rocks off to sexual imagery or even literature, and Elfen Lied isn't just naked women covered in blood. A lot of the sexual imagery doesn't involve violence. To make matters worse, there is a considerable amount of fan service involving girls under the age of 13 and many people find that far more objectionable than women covered in blood or scat.

There was underage nudity? God I don't even remember. I don't even remember there was nudity in the OVA. One last time, I'm not defending Elfen. I DUN LIEK IT.

I don't think I've ever eaten rats before. Unless you count hot dogs.

If all you've seen is ADV's release, you probably haven't seen the OVA, although it was definitely very heavy on the fan service, especially in the bath scene with Lucy and Nana. As for underage nudity, Nana is seen naked a few times, Mayu at least once, as well as Lucy in the flashback scenes.

I do. Same as I count licking postage stamps as tasting semen.

The political correctness line was directed at mlai since he kept doing the whole "art is art and it's only as I see art and don't hurt the art the art is good the art is great surrender your will as of this date" and that was grating at me to imply that I was saying something I wasn't.

And as for most of the times when the sexual imagery wasn't violence it was retarded because the only time someone was naked and it wasn't violent was when Nyuu was being Nyu. Mariko killed "Expendable Bitch 33" when she was naked and when Nana was naked she was A. Being experimented on or B. Having the shit beat out of her by Mariko. I think she has 1 bath scene with Lucy in the OVA, but I only saw it once and realized why it wasn't included otherwise. The non dicloni characters aren't shown naked at all, with an implied nudity moment for the Mayu she's about to be raped. So the few times with Nyu it'd be liked fucking a retard.

But on point, once again I was trying to convey a sense of "Let's be mature about this" and instead garnered a lot of indignities apparently.

And I don't care that you don't like it mlai, in fact I can understand it. I just wanted to clarify my thoughts and my take on what you had said and it has become THIS. Personally I liked it.

well and plus, Nyu is literally... in a sense, retarded in the show ^^;

oh wait now I remember the OVA :D
that bonus episode right? I watched it on youtube chopped up @_@
but it was a funny episode ^^

well, I liked Elfen Lied a lot, because it had an awesome story and end.
I could care less about fan service... actually I hate fanservice in general.

but if a couple of boobs is enough to get between you and a good story, you'll probably miss out.

I'm satisfied with Mlai's part of not liking it cause he's seen all of it and came
to the conclusion that he didnt like it. I respect that.

That's why I said I didn't mind. I was just trying to get my point across about my views on fanservice and suddenly I was insulting the medium of erotica in full and every picture that ever had a sign of cleavage lol.

No, my point was that it was never about Elfen Lied, as in I'm not specifically defending Elfen Lied. I said that ad nauseum in every 1 of my posts. But you keep raising it back up as the example of why you think erotica is deviant.

I first took issue because I felt you were using EL as the excuse to bash all literature with sexual themes. You may have later explained yourself as otherwise, but nonetheless you keep returning to EL, which no one is defending, for the purposes of bolstering your original position.

So if we can agree that EL has tons of unnecessary fan service, but that doesn't reflect on classic erotica of the world in general (and we're talking about masterpieces of world literature), then there's nothing to argue about.

Edit: Y'all have a good night and pleasant dreams, now.

But even in my original point I only said what was my personal preference in saying "I personally don't think" and the only time you should have felt attacked was when I said "c'mon covered in blood nipples etc." And I shouldn't have had to explain it since I typed it the way I originally did to express that seem reasoning lol.

I don't understand what you mean by "you keep returning to EL, which no one is defending, for the purposes of bolstering your original position." considering everytime all three of use in our little pretentious Circle Jerk(You, me, and Isuand I guess on occasion Kxe) talked about it. and I kept returning to it to bolster my position because THAT WAS my position. That's like me trying to sell you chocolates and you take offense that I'm not selling you toffee and then get mad at me for still talking about chocolate. There was very little connection to any of it other then a very thin connection(in that case being both are candy).

And I don't agree that it has tons of unnecessary fan service. But I agree to the rest. I agree it has fanservice, but I think there is a lot of nudity. I consider them different things. For fanservice read Getbackers.

And nighty night lovelumps.

I rreally don't feel like taking your original post and omnislashing it, even though as I typed the last reply I was looking right at it. So that's that.

Personally I vastly prefer subs over dubs, simply because of the higher VA quality. Yes, theoretically I am missing inflections in key words in certain scenes. But on average, I'm getting much more out of simply hearing the emotions behind the semi-coherent gibberish. And you can't dismiss the power of the written word. Lastly I gotta hand it to fan-subbers. We're blessed with these guys; they're good.