The owners had competely no idea how to take of a cat properly...ended up doing things to piss off the cats, etc... and as an result the cats began to assocate all humans with things they did not like at all. so every time an human even looked thier way, the cat would proably think something like: " hiss, that human proably wants to rub my fur the wrong way or some other awful things like the human of this house does!!" and with that they go into an hissing, blind fury fit.

Except that isn't a product of training. You get the same problems in dogs that are mistreated, as well. With cats, though, they don't need to be house trained, they don't need to be leash trained, and they generally don't need to be trained to not be a pack leader. The cat doesn't associate you with a particular rank. You CAN train cats in respect to minor conduct issues like scratching furniture or getting up on the counter tops, but these are also issues with dogs. Overall, a cat still requires far LESS training than a dog, and I believe that was the original point.

combine that with the fact that some owners don't netuer thier cats at all, not wanting to have the cats' personalities altered or some other stupid reason. should those cats with bad attudite problems get out and mate with other cats if there's no other cats in the house... boom, kittens.

Only male cats get neutered. Females get spayed and males don't generally have any part in the child rearing process, so you're not likely to get kittens with a cat that hasn't been neutered.

and usually the kittens will take on the parents' viewpoints of humans in gerenal.

Actually, that isn't true. Cats don't have any complex ways of communicating ideas like "avoid humans". She may shy away, but cats develop a sense of what is safe and what isn't based on experience. This is why it only takes one generation for strays to become feral. Raised away from humans, even if the mother trusts humans, if the kittens don't come in contact with humans during the development years, they won't come to trust them. It is also why the humane society is often able to capture feral kittens and domesticate them. Even with a mother who didn't trust humans, those kittens can learn to trust humans as they grow up. Cats are naturally curious creatures who tend to learn pimarily through experience.

they then basically turned into massive groups that would roam not only the countryside, but in the cities/towns too.... and of course, they would attack any humans that got too close to them.

Feral cats everywhere hate people, that isn't a product of parentage, but of upbringing. Most feral animals will attack people if they get too close. What did you think distinguished a feral animal from a domestic one? A domestic animal doesn't give up it's natural tendencies, it is just acclimated to being around people.

but I've seen some quickly change thier mind regarding that when they've been attacked by a pride of semi-feral housecats who were raised to hate humans.

I think you mean feral. A semi-feral cat is just another way of saying a stray. i.e. a cat who was once domesticated and was either set free or abandoned.

yet, those sort of wild and semi-wild cats are allowed to roam around unchecked and pose a possible risk to humans... because hey, they're small, fluffy and therefore harmless... yeah, right.

Many urban areas have programs for controlling feral cat populations. After all, they are more of a threat than feral dogs in city settings. They are good at avoiding traffic, they get into garbage, they spread disease to domesticated cats (and aren't that good for people), they tend to be violent and destructive, and they breed like rabbits. The problem is you get animal rights yahoos who protest control methods that involve killing the cats and there simply aren't enough people to do the alternative (although PETA doesn't particularly like that either). Yeah, it may seem awful to poison or shoot cats, but the Humane Society can't just lock them up, either. They can't be redomesticated and there are already too many cats to be adopted as it is. The altenative is spaying and neutering ferals, but you tend to need a lot of volunteers willing to take time out of their busy schedules to trap cats for the procedure, and even then, it is an ongoing process since people abandon cats every day.

Also, in the cases where they have been able to go in and spay and neuter cats in colonies, they have found that the fixed cats tend to be less aggressive, which helps cut down the frequency of cats attacking people or destroying property.

Cats are not pack animals. As adults cats would not naturally show affection to any other creature unless they were mothering kittens.

I still have to disagree with this. Everything I've read, and everything I've seen as a cat owner says otherwise. Housecats naturally form social groups. It isn't a simbling or mother/child relationship, either. Housecats may be solitary predators, but they are not solitary creatures. if anything, their social structures are built around security and breeding, not some arbitrary, nonexistant family bond.

isukun
I still have to disagree with this. Everything I've read, and everything I've seen as a cat owner says otherwise. Housecats naturally form social groups. It isn't a simbling or mother/child relationship, either. Housecats may be solitary predators, but they are not solitary creatures. if anything, their social structures are built around security and breeding, not some arbitrary, nonexistant family bond.

I don't know what you're reading Isukun.
I also think you didn't really take in what I was saying- Wild adult cats are not naturally social animals, this is just an ordinary evolutionary fact I'm afraid. They have not evolved the bodies or the minds to live in that way.

Lions are the only real exception. And as as said, when social groups do happen (and they do happen in the wild), this is not due to a pack instinct or because cats were evolved to behave that way, it is simply an extension of the early childhood behaviour, nothing more. This is what observation says, this is what the studies say, this is what we know.

I think you misunderstand "family", you're conceiving it in an anthropomorphic sense. I talking about "family" in a realistic sense; that means security, breeding, shared child rearing et. Unlike the behaviour of animal who have evolved to be social though cats do not of complex intuitive forms of communication, they cannot coordinate the behaviour of the group to any great extent- even among female lion co-ordinated hunting is limited to a small group of close sisters with the male acting largely independently. They cannot co-ordinate to deal with threats. In any cat colony their only connection is informal, they behave and act as individuals.

-The kitten/mother relationship has to do with how most (not all) cats will behave towards the human or humans that feeds them most. This is the reason why adult cats continue what are solely child behaviours: purring with pleasure, enjoying being stroked, pawing, and most existentially: complex vocalising. With one another the relationship is more like that of a sibling- that is to say, not a rival, which is the normal behaviour of two adult cats who are from different ranges and unrelated.

I don't know what you're reading Isukun.

I could say the same about you. Are all of your studies from the 70's?

Lions are the only real exception. And as as said, when social groups do happen (and they do happen in the wild), this is not due to a pack instinct or because cats were evolved to behave that way, it is simply an extension of the early childhood behaviour, nothing more. This is what observation says, this is what the studies say, this is what we know.

And Cheetahs, and Fishing Cats, and the Lynx, and the Snow Leopard, and in recent studies, there has even been evidence of Tigers forming social groups. Feral cats are commonly recognized along with Lions and Cheetahs as being the most social of feline species and that is a natural adaptation. The problem, is that people have a tendnecy to approach cat species from the same perspective as dogs and their social structures simply do not function the same way. Feline social behavior shares more in common with humans than with dogs. It is a gathering of individuals, not a pack. Would you also argue that humans are naturally solitary creatures? At some point in our lives we have a tendency to seek out independence. We promote individuality, but also recognize the necessity of social interaction for the protection and propogation of our species. We form social groups outside of our family connections which feature different conduct and behavioral standards. All of this is also consistant with feral social structures.

Unlike the behaviour of animal who have evolved to be social though cats do not of complex intuitive forms of communication

Really? Cats actually have a more complex language than dogs. They have the same scent based language, but also use scents to establish a social hierarchy within a group, not just mark their territory. Vocally, cats meow, they growl, they hiss, they purr and each has a different meaning and can have different variations. In terms of body motion, there are a number of visual cues cats use to express how they are feeling to other cats. Cats also combine a number of visual and vocal cues to express different abstract concepts.

They cannot co-ordinate to deal with threats. In any cat colony their only connection is informal, they behave and act as individuals.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain wrong. Cats DO coordinate to deal with threats. Ferals are smaller than other predators and have been known to use group tactics to protect the colony from larger predators and to provide for the colony when hunting. When cats attack a threat as a group, how is that not coordinating to deal with threats?

The kitten/mother relationship has to do with how most (not all) cats will behave towards the human or humans that feeds them most.

Funny. My parents have had eight cats in the past at different times and NONE of them have exhibited this behavior. Their most recent cats favor my mother and my sister and pretty much ignore my father who actually feeds them. Cat relationships tend to be more based on who they spend more time with. When we got those two, my father was working while my mother worked at home and my sister was in middle school. They spent more time with the cats, thus they developed more of a bond. My father has always been the one responsible for feeding them and changing their litter, though, and they are both very aware of this fact. They never wake up my sister or my mother first thing in the morning when their food bowls are empty.

This is the reason why adult cats continue what are solely child behaviours: purring with pleasure, enjoying being stroked, pawing, and most existentially: complex vocalising.

And what makes you think these are necessarily child behaviors? Many of these contribute to adult specific communication and behavior in cats. Just because they have a tendency to do something more frequently as a child, that doesn't mean the action serves no purpose to the adult.

Oh Isukun, when you think you're right on something, like Nintendo, PS3 or whatever else you drop into a belligerent role. All you're doing at this stage is repeating that you "don't agree", for whatever reason, with some of the things I've said. So it would be fruitless for me to continue.

I'll agree that you believe what you do for your own reasons (what you have experienced, observed, read, grown up with etc), and that you disagree with what I've written. Fair enough. I can leave it at that. :)

Hooo, and I thought VS threads weren't allowed, my my, what other forum rules can be overruled? And by whom?

Haha, anyway. I had a dog as a child. I loved him, though he had a lot of problems; diseases and the like. Golden Retriever -- very cute. I think dogs are more fun then cats, overall, but then again cats play with yarn with you, and the like.

I want a cat, as I am now though, as they're generally cuter then dogs, smaller, make less noise, and poop in the same place when you've trained them.

SO KAWAII :3

SO MOE :v

Cats are normally smaller, more compact, they poop and pee in a box and I can just scoop it, they don't bark, they can't maul someone at the door, they have fluffier fur, they can't turn on me and kill me, they can play pianos, and they have their own internet meme.*

I like cats waaaaay more. =)






*not all of these points always apply to every situation.

Sticky Sheets
Hooo, and I thought VS threads weren't allowed, my my, what other forum rules can be overruled? And by whom?

They're not you're right. Hawk is the mod here though so ot's up to him what goes or stays really.

The answer is clearly cats...
Why on earth would anybody want a dog when cats are available.
Aslan was a cat, so I think that conclusively proves it.

I think the only thing dogs are good for are finding dead people and protecting property...

AshleeS
Cats are normally smaller, more compact, they poop and pee in a box and I can just scoop it, they don't bark, they can't maul someone at the door, they have fluffier fur, they can't turn on me and kill me, they can play pianos, and they have their own internet meme.*

I like cats waaaaay more. =)






*not all of these points always apply to every situation.

Unless your pet is a leopard.

I think it really boils down to preparation and what kind of wine you have on hand.

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand we're done.
Topic moved.

Sorry, couldn't let this one go on longer in D & D.

Cats, because they don't laugh at you when you're a bad shot.



>:[