I read this article and thought it was intersting, and managed to copy and paste most of it before the site went down.

The spectre of ageism haunts large segments of the community. Ageist attitudes and actions are so commonplace and so accepted that the major difficulty in combating this problem is simply convincing people that there is a problem. It is ironic that the very same people who are swamped in ageist attitudes are usually those who fight most vocally against racism and sexism. Perhaps it is merely symptomatic of the depth of their ageism that they do not even recognize our complaints as valid.
But what exactly is ageism? Simply stated, people are guilty of ageism when they:

ignore a person's ideas or contributions simply because of that contributing person's age;

fail to recognize a person's abilities due solely to his or her age;

imply that a person's behavior stems directly from his or her current age.

Ageism has its own vocabulary, its own behavioral code ~ even its own culture. When we refer to an action as ageist, there are several levels upon which this can be so. We have heard the ageist motto, "Children should be seen and not heard". This is oppression in its purest form, but there are many more subtle manifestations of ageism. these range from the outright neglect of young people to cliched put-downs of a young person's volunteered opinion.

When a person uses the word "childish" to describe immature behavior, (s)he is being ageist. When a department store refuses to admit people under 16 "unless accompanied by an adult", it is being ageist. When a parent speaks of "puppy love" as being cute or trivial, (s)he is being ageist. And when society refuses to try a 14-year-old as an adult, this too is ageism.

Ageism is a unique form of oppression in that it is a) never permanent and b) fully reversible. Oppressed becomes oppressor just as surely as day becomes night. And this apes on through such socially sanctioned methods as the father's moans, "When I was your age I was already. . ." or "When I was your age I couldn't even..." which both imply that behavior advances in easily designated stages and no one should be permitted to act in a manner considered inappropriate to his/her supposed stage. This cyclical, self-sustaining action is what makes ageism so dangerous. When a child's ideas and feelings are suppressed or invalidated, it is very easy to replace these ideas and feelings with those which are not necessarily the child's own. After this occurs, the child is merely a tiny clone of his/her oppressor - ready to support, in thought, word, and deed, every action of that oppressor, which (s)he has been mistakenly led to believe would have been his/her own action in similar circumstances.

Another danger of ageism is the stagnation it is liable to bring to the movement. Squelch the voices of the young and you squelch new ideas, new outlooks, and new patterns of thought - those which have not been tainted by the years of hypocrisy and self-contempt which have afflicted so many who came out before Stonewall. The young are famous for our radicalism ~ attributed by some, ageistically of course, to our "naivete" and our "optimism". Supposedly we have not experienced enough of the world's ways to have become cynical enough to understand that "we can't change anything." This ageist doctrine merely wastes the power of youth to help change the world; whatever the source of our energy and radicalism it still exists and should be cultivated rather than denigrated.

I have shown to you the threat posed by ageism to the sustenance of this movement. Eliminate the young people and you eliminate any chance of a future.

So how can one overcome one's unconscious ageism and raise one's consciousness? The first step is to examine one's vocabulary. Check to see if it contains words like "child", "kid", or "baby" ~ when used in a pejorative way to denote unruly or immature behavior. Or phrases like "Lesbians and Gay Men", which fails to note the large gay male population under 18; like "(S)he's at that age" or ''(S)he's only a kid", which attach unfair behavioral judgments to certain age levels; or "You're old enough to know better", which implies that knowledge and age must always grow in direct proportion to one another.

Many who hear about ageism dismiss it simply as another attempt by "those young whippersnappers" to bully adults into letting them run about wild and do whatever they want. What these people fail to acknowledge is that the whole point of any kind of liberation movement is for its participants to gain the freedom to do "whatever they want." Youth liberation is no different in this respect from Women's Liberation, Gay Liberation, Third World Liberation, or any liberation movement. To dismiss youth as unworthy of this freedom because "they're just kids" is of course in itself the height (or should one say the nadir) of ageist acts.

This article deals with ageism against youth. But let us not forget that there is equal ageism directed against the elderly. Charges of senility or similar excuses are often used to suppress the voices of our older generations. American society sloughs senior citizens off like dead skin ~ funnelling them into nursing homes or hospitals where they sit and collect dust. No one seems to understand that old age is an inevitability ~ and that once one realizes the rage and frustration of being cast from the society one has served for so long, it will be too late.

Sorry that I couldn't provide a link, I didn't want to provide a link to an site that seems to be down for some reason. When I check later and if it's back up, i'll post the link to the rest of the article.

So what do you think?

Does ageism play an negative impact on how mature, responsible young people looking for jobs are treated? or even how they are treated in socieity as a whole?

Does ageism have a negative impact on how old people are treated in society?

Or does it actually have a postive impact on the society as a whole? discuss.

youth are more likely to start violent crime.

So whenever I'm by myself and I find myself surrounded by a pack of "youth" aged 15-25, I'm in high alert mode. I feel adrenaline flowing... like I'm ready to fight or run any moment.

And so, I hangout in places where older people go to... I dont go to the nightclub often because thats where the younger age group goes to. Bars are more frequented by older guys.

Avoidance is better than confrontation. Yeah... or maybe my paranoia might cause me to hurt someone and get me in big trouble with the law.


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And btw, I'm a "youth". I'm in my early 20s.

I'd agree with this article. And it runs both ways; adults are as disrespected by kids as kids are by adults. (And seniors are just disrespected by everybody.)

I wish that there was an innate groundwork of respect and friendship that people could instantly build a relationship on upon meeting someone else. We shouldn't isolate people's ideas just because we think they're inferior to us in any way.

~IJ

Ah, I scanned it. Ageism is interesting, but it’s not as important as the article makes out. Really, the big problem as I see it these days is that youth culture is all important. The young and celebrated, the old are despised and ignored. Look at those fucking sheep who call the Rolling Stones “Dinosaurs”. Why? They’re old, that’s true, but they invented the music they play, the fashions they wear, the way they talk. They’re not trying to be young, they’re just being themselves and if they want to do it until they die I think that’s wonderful.

The trouble is that pop-culture is entirely marketed towards youth, usually teen youth and very early 20’s. But that period in a person’s life only lasts about 5 minutes and then it’s gone… And all these people that are currently IN that short stage of life and that know they’re being celebrated also know that most of life’s opportunities are denied them until they’re older. They feel that if they’re so important and lovely, then why are they excluded from all the “good” things? So it’s apparently “ageist”. The silly thing is though that most of the generations before were either in the same position or were worse of, but it wasn’t a problem because they could wait and they weren’t having their hopes built up so much.

Just try and remember that the driving forces behind youth culture are not youth, the people behind it really are generally disgusting, old, nasty, cynical people who don’t give a fuck about youth or anything else… Don’t be manipulated, realise that there’s some growing up to do yet and enjoy early youth while you have it. Don’t be in a hurry to grow up.

Ageism may exist, but I find a lot of it isn't unfounded. Younger people have ambitions, older people have experience and everyone has pride. Kids want to be adults and adults want to think they have earned something after going through years of school and physical growth. The elderly just want people to accept them as functional adults. Problem is, often kids DON'T know what they're talking about, adults AREN'T always right, and the elderly often ARE less than competent, but everyone is willing to bitch and moan when others call them on it.

.: isukun :.

I believe that younger people resent their elders and older people do not respect the young.

I have been a victim of both in my life. I started working for a software company at a young age (before graduating high school) and quickly became familiar with the software to the point that I was teaching classes on how to use it... before I was 20. I had to spend the first day or two of these week long traininsessions proving to these studants that were older than me that I did know what I was talking about and that they could learn from me.

Now that I'm older I have had younger people that I work with blow off or ignore what I say because I've been doing what I'm doing for so many years. They think that what I'm saying is not relevant or not up-to-date.

Fact is, ageism does exist and will cause problems until everyone drops their pre concieved notions about age and listes honestly to others, regardless of how long they've been alive... and the only way to hide our age is to all walk around with paperbags on our heads. That will take care of racism and sexism, too!

Goblyn I know what you mean.

I've been an victim of both myself too.

like when I was looking for jobs when I got out of high school to save up not only for living in an apartment building, but also saving up to collage there was many times I was rejected for an job application just because of my age. and I had to push myself to prove to the people out there that I was good at doing my job, which I resented having to do when older people had it easier. (you know, as not having to prove that you're not irresponsible, etc). it's like once you become that "adult" age people assume that you will be responsible most of the time, and you don't have to prove that you're responsible and mature.

Yet, certain adults that shouldn't have certain job positions, shouldn't had been allowed to become parents, etc and so on forth.. those types of adults are clearly very irresponsible. I daresay that they're way more irresponsible than any teenager could ever be (at least usually).

it was like they were judging me to be just some irresponsible teenager.. painting me with the same brush they do to every damn person under the age 24, or something like that. also assuming that if something went missing, I was the one to take it when I didn't.

What, adults don't "borrow" things? why do they assume teenagers are the only one who "borrows" office supplies when they shouldn't?

I tell you, they should have like some sort of test where people of ALL ages if they didn't handle things so responsibility, should be restricted from having children, or having jobs where they would have important positions over other people... and only be given jobs that people of that level of responsibly that they can handle.

If younger people HAVE to prove that they're responsible and mature enough to handle certain duties, then so should adults too! it needs to be equal for everyone I think.

would certainly save a lot of unfortunate children from their irresponsible parents. and certainly save some boss giving some important job to some moron that's liable to mess up everything.

I know several people older than myself who I would not trust to take care of my fish... I also know people younger than me who would make great management. The problem is with the pre-cocieved notion that age = ability. Simply not true, but hard to getrid of.

As a parent, I am constantly amazed at how often I have a notion of what my children are capable of due to how old they are and, on a daily basis, they step up and destroy that notion by proving that they are more than the sum of the days they have been alive.

The problem is with the pre-cocieved notion that age = ability. Simply not true, but hard to getrid of.

As a parent, I am constantly amazed at how often I have a notion of what my children are capable of due to how old they are and, on a daily basis, they step up and destroy that notion by proving that they are more than the sum of the days they have been alive.

yeah. I get that way too with my 2 1/2 year old nephew now too.
It's like most people think that most 2-year-olds wouldn't remember things so well, or talk very well about how they want things, etc...

and my nephew blows that out of the water basically. He remembers a lot of things so well that I wouldn't be surpised that he would still remember them when he's like 7 years old.
and he speaks so well too.. you'd think he was older from the way he speaks. like he'd say: "I want to go to grandma's house and have some of her chocolate. can we?"

But then again... I remember a lot of things from when I was a mere toddler myself, like when I first devloped an great dislike for the carrot taste...lol

so those people who say it's impossible to remember things from that age would proably be very wrong.

like when I was looking for jobs when I got out of high school to save up not only for living in an apartment building, but also saving up to collage there was many times I was rejected for an job application just because of my age.

That sentence makes me seriously doubt you were turned down just because of your age. Employers tend to look for two things when considering new people. One is prior work experience and the other is higher education, both of which I doubt you had much of coming right out of high school. Also, interviewers warm up to interviewees who are more confident. People new to the process tend to get nervous and that makes them seem less motivated or responsible.

As for older people proving themselves, many have through their prior work experience. Holding a job in that field for several years without getting fired is usually a pretty good indication for companies that the person knows what they are doing. That means less training and an employee who already knows how to play the game. Plus, more experience and education also marks someone as possible management material. It is much harder to fill those positions with competent people. Management needs to be able to do more than just lead.

When it comes to hiring people, I find age discrimination tends to be far more prevalent with older job seekers. This is basically due to the fact that most companies don't like wasting time wih training new employees. The elderly are the most likely to leave soon after they are hired, either due to retirement or decrepitude. In some cases, the same reasoning can apply to high school and college kids looking for summer jobs. Companies aren't as likely to hire them because they would only be there temporarily until school starts up again. This has nothing to do with how responsible they think you are or how capable they think someone your age is.

.: isukun :.

actually, I worked before even when I was in high school. and I tended to go for the jobs which I could do to the best of my abilities, and also were jobs where they would not require an college education.
basically, I was aiming for working at staples', or pretty much other similar types of stores out there.. and also an ice-cream place where all I would have to do was serve people their ice-cream.

it wasn't certainly the type of job placement where there would be many adults rushing to work at, if you know what I mean.

and on top of that, the employer at one of those places himself actually told me: "Well, you're a little bit younger than the type we're used to hiring here, so I don't think I can gurrate you an job. however I have your number and e-mail address so we'll let you know whenever you have the job or not later on."

And I had work experience before working at that type of embellishment, and it did not require an college education and I was pretty sure I came off as as confident.

Nah, I think my problem was that even though I was 16-17 years old, I pretty much looked like an 12-13 year old in appearance due to my height and body shape. I've been repeatedly asked if I had an work permit or an ID card to prove my age.

tell me the truth, would you WANT to hire somebody who looked like they were too young to work? might not be too good for the company's image.

Nah, I think my problem was that even though I was 16-17 years old

Once again, you fail to really convince me that you had any significant prior work experience.

Plus, hiring people under the age of 16 without the proper paperwork and parental consent is illegal. So, yes, it does make you look kind of bad to have someone working there that looks underage. What's more, a lot of kids lie to employers so they can get a job. If you did look as young as you said, I wouldn't be surprised if employers were a bit skeptical, but that has nothing to do with them judging you based on your age.

"Well, you're a little bit younger than the type we're used to hiring here, so I don't think I can gurrate you an job. however I have your number and e-mail address so we'll let you know whenever you have the job or not later on."

Also, it's usually best to take stuff like that with a grain of salt. Employers try to find easy ways to break rejection to people who come in for interviews, especially if those people are qualified for a job. They don't want to discourage the people from looking elsewhere. They also use tactics like that when they've already hired someone, but feel obligated to finish interviewing, anyway. They don't want to admit that they've wasted your time.

.: isukun :.

Ageism... the part about children becoming clones sounded a little like parenting to me. Parents teach their kids from their past knowlege and the kids grow with that knowledge that influences their desecions so, all children will be conditioned one way or another by thei parents, but their still uniquely themselves.

But back to Agesim, Ageism deals with the catagories of age.

Young= inexperienced

old= out of touch

Problem is most of the time its true. The Youth may come up with radical new ideas to change the world but most of the time these ideas will never take off, because the world dosen't work like that. And most of the time the elderly are unable to keep up with the rapid change in technology and life.

But in these groups are the few that break the mold. Young that are wise enough to make good decesions and take their youth and radical ideas and make them work, because their smart, strong, and responsible enough to do so.

And there are the elderly who stay in touch and up to date. The problem with ageism really only effects the few who can make a difference. Which is a problem, but the reason these people are different is usually because they can handle problems and overcome them and become better because of it.

But it ageism is a shame in all, to catagorize every one as senile or untrustworthy, just because of their age. But it is safer than waiting to find the untrustworthy or senil drivers.

It's the market. Tweens get the money from their parents to buy stuff. Precollege teenagers work to buy stuff. When you're in your 20's you get married, have kids and spoil your kids rotten buying them stuff. Then as Grandparents you buy stuff for your grandkids. The media likes to focus on kids because stuff for them is where the money goes.

WELL, I'M TURNING 40 THIS YEAR!

That means my ideas are stale, my drawings old fashioned, that The Dead Kennedys are the new Laurence Welk and Alice Cooper is easy listening. I almost could be sexy 'cause I'm a man (Women don't get to be sexy at 40 as a rule) - but I have to be male 40 and RICH to qualify as sexy and I don't cut it. I have no possibility now, only young people have futures.

Okay, that's not entirely true. I'm a gay man - as such older gay men are fetishized by younger gay men with daddy issues. Too bad I'm in a relationship.

I'm also a cartoonist, cartooning a good life passion - as frequently artists do their very best and most commercial work late in their careers, unlike athletes, actors or models.

Youth is suppossed to be discriminated against. Experience is a real thing and without it you should be disadvantaged. Why is the classic male hair styles of Japan meant to imitate male pattern balding - because youth is discriminated against.

But the reality is that it is not. Being young (and pretty) all by itself gets people jobs in retail and bartending and as waitstaff. In advertising young designers are assumed to 'know' the youth market. The culture is oriented around youth to a ridiculous degree.

The mere fact that young people have the thought they should be entitled to the same esteem as older experienced generations shows hoe topsy turvy attitudes have become.

Just remember, if you don't die - you too will turn 40. And all your skill and experience will mean nothing as a fresh High school graduate is considered your better: more current, in touch with youth marketing, sexy, better educated perhaps - more current technologically ... and CHEAPER TO EMPLOY.

In this torrent of bitterness, I'm wondering if I ever even want to age. Maybe I'll move to some European country where I'll be more respected in my old age.

Or I'll go crazy. That always seems to work out in the end.

I fucking hate aegism. I'm 11, so no one takes me serious when I'm trying to be serious, or beleives me when I tell them stuff. It makes me SO MAD.

Even at 21 you're not taken seriously by many adults, unless they're your family. Or else teachers and professors whose good sides you're on... at least, that's been my experience.

Jillers
Even at 21 you're not taken seriously by many adults, unless they're your family. Or else teachers and professors whose good sides you're on... at least, that's been my experience.

yep. same here. I'm 22 years old now and there's still people who won't take me seriously at all just because they're the type who thinks that they're always right and never wrong just because they're older and the "more experniced" one.

But what they fail to regonize that there are times when even a person younger than them can be actually right, and the older people can be wrong, despite the expernice that comes with age.
But of course that's only with certain topics and issues. there's alot of situations where the younger people might end up being wrong most of the time, but that doesn't mean that they are always wrong on every issue and topic out there.

and here I just thought of something else intersting to bring up.

Take the whole "danger" factor of the interenet when it comes to meeting new people.
the news tends to focus on kids and teenagers being so stupid and gulliable that they go out to meet a total stranger after only talking to them for like 3 weeks.

Yet, there's a lot of kids out there who knows better than to do that, and wouldn't even give an adult online the time of day if they acted towards them in an inapporate manner.
believe it or not, I was one of those kids who started using the net at age 11, but were educated on the dangers of strangers online and were told to try to use my common sense. Never been kidnapped or inapproately chatted to. well, there was adults who tried, but I blocked them so fast before you could even blink.

But what the news don't really focus on is the ADULT women and a few adult men who goes out to meet strangers over the net after only having talked to the strangers on the net for like one week.
The adult women who ends up getting raped or went missing because of it. that does happen, you know.

And that happens because those same adult people who didn't use thier common sense at all, they thought they were "safe" just because of their age, and that they could handle anything just because they were an adult.

I think the problem with that is that people focus so much on coddling the young people and more prone to thinking that young people is in instant danger if they ever used the net at all, that they fail to regonize that there are some adult people out there that needs to be educated about the dangers of meeting strangers over the net also.

Remember, for every stupid teenager/kid, there is also an stupid adult out there that also needs to be educated.

so it isn't always the younger group who is stupid, inexperniced or lacking common sense.

(just posted this for disscussion).

Think of yourself at 22, though. Now ask if you would have taken yourself seriously 12 years ago? The thing is, if you're getting hired by someone who is a good deal older than you (like 10, 15, or 20 years) they're probably not going to take you as seriously, especially if you're still in your teens or 20's. Because even if your 20's, the part of your brain that controls judgement may still be developing. For teens it's even worse. Plus is your teens or 20's you're still getting used to many of life's challenges.

So in many ways, ageism toward the youth is justified just because of the youth's inexperience. As for ageism against the old..that becomes a difficult matter as the age that people live to increases, and how much of their brain they can still use.

However, 12 year old aren't asked to be taken as seriously as a 22 year old - there are completely different needs and wants.
A 12 year old wants his/her parents to take them serisouly when they say that they want to go out for the swim team, or want to take dancing lessons, or want to join little league.
A 22 year old wants his/her potential employer to see that, while they are young and inexperienced, there is potential and eagerness to learn.

The problem is that if a young person isn't given experience, then when they're older they won't have the experience to be judged on.

True - your brain doesn't finish developing until AT LEAST your early 20's (at least emphasized because that means that by your mid to late 20's it's still possible that your brain isn't fully developed).
However, the part of your brain being developed at this point is your ability to make complex decisions. How can this portion develop successfully if you don't learn by making mistakes?

Ageism towards youth is NOT justified, nor is ageism against anyone. If experience in a position is required, then it's proper a young person not be hired. If, however, no experience is required, then competancy should be the only discerning factor - because the fact is, is that someone who is 21/22 may be as capable at certain jobs, if not more, than a 30/40 year old. And vice-versa.

Older people have experience, younger people have enthusiam.

It's unfair to say that older people deserve more than younger people based solely on age. Which implies a 40 year old who's done nothing all their life, didn't graduate college, and only has a lifetime of experience to bring to the table deserves a job more than the 20 year old who has no life experience, but wants to get some.

And in a situation where the only difference between two applicants is age? The job shouldn't automatically go to the older person - nor should it go to the younger person - it should go to the person who will work better in said enviroment - so perhaps an additional interview would be called for, because one could fuction better in a coroprate world where there are thousands of faces a day and the other may function better in a smaller enviroment that's more personal.

Or else flip a coin. The coin isn't ageist.

In the end, there is NO JUSTIFIABLE "-ISM" OF ANY KIND.

IMO.

ccs1989
Think of yourself at 22, though. Now ask if you would have taken yourself seriously 12 years ago? The thing is, if you're getting hired by someone who is a good deal older than you (like 10, 15, or 20 years) they're probably not going to take you as seriously, especially if you're still in your teens or 20's. Because even if your 20's, the part of your brain that controls judgement may still be developing. For teens it's even worse. Plus is your teens or 20's you're still getting used to many of life's challenges.

So in many ways, ageism toward the youth is justified just because of the youth's inexperience. As for ageism against the old..that becomes a difficult matter as the age that people live to increases, and how much of their brain they can still use.

I'm making a program for a tax company and I'm 11.

Well said, jillers.
You said it so well I think I'm just gonna quote you from now on every time you post in this thread. :shock:

it's true though. when an 12-year-old wants to be taken seriously, it doesn't usually mean giving them the rights of an full adult, but more about listening to what they want to do at the moment. like simply wanting their parents to respect their wishes when they start to form opinions about what they want or don't want to do.

for example, parents who are so used to their kids complying to their whims whenever the parents signed up their kids for something, starts getting upset when the kid starts growing up and starts thinking for himself/herself. they start to stereotype that as the start of teenage rebellion or something because they're getting to that age.
no, quite simply all 12-year-olds usually want to do is join the actives they want to do, and not just do actives their parents want them to do.

After all, what if an 12-year-old girl didn't want to go to ballerina class but were being forced to by her overzealous mother who's simply trying to raise her daughter up to be an graceful, elegant young woman. There may be other actives that the 12-year-old girl wanted to do instead, such as joining the swim team instead but the mother doesn't listen because she thinks that the 12-year-old isn't serious or doesn't know what she wants because of her age.

that would be a combination of both Ageism and lack of listening to your own child.

Which I think can be very bad concerning the relationship between mother and daughter, which would seriously be strained.

Now on the other hand, 22-year-olds. they have very much different needs. usually just right out of college, living on their own so they seriously need an job, plus the expernice that comes along with it. They usually do go for the jobs that Require NO expernice needed at all, yet they might be passed over for older people most of the time.

not fair? I think so. but what others think about that is up to them.