lothar
I AM SOOOOO SICk of hearing about abortion from amerikans !!!!
what about the 100,000+ Iraqi civilians killed so far in THIS current invasion ????
lets have a national debate about that you F-ing hypocrits !!!!!!!!!!

Guess what, Mr Holmes, we do, quite frequently.

lothar
Dont take it personal Aurora , my outrage is more directed at the American Media , Organized religion , politicians , ETC. THEY are the hypocrits !!!
dont pretend to represent , i know and you know you are the minority in your motivation to opose the WAR , i think most Arericans want out of Iraq because of US military deaths not the faceless citizens of Iraq, that and the fact it is a financial drain, or that its making America look weak .
i'm just guna generalize here and say most americans are HYPOCRITS because they seam to believe human life decreases in value from the moment of conception !

You /do/ have polotics where you're from, right? I mean - you have the internet, you must have politicians. Politicians never talk about the real issues, they smoke screen it all in circular logic and some really well performed (I hate to admit) rhetoric.

And, actually, when polled, most americans are against the war in Iraq. The fact that Democrats have taken over the house and senate (I believe) show that Americans are tired of this war, becasue the main platform of the Democrats was to stop the war.

I'm gonna' generalize here and say that most PEOPLE are hypocrits - I'm willing to say, in fact, that everyone is a hypocrite. If you say you're not, you probably are.

And, buddy, we're not the only country who has done horrible things.



And, besides all of that, I'm pretty sure that in this debate forum there's a debate about the Iraq war. This topic, however, was made specifically for an abortion debate.

As far as the US media and public in general , i realy have not seen even 1% as much time given to discussion of Iraqi -CIVILIAN- deaths as they do to ranting about Abortion !!! thats all i'm sayin !

lothar
...are HYPOCRITS because they seam to believe human life decreases in value from the moment of conception !

As far as that aplies to anti-abortionists I agree 100%!

As for Iraqi civilians; their lives are worthless to most people in the West. We never cared about them. Which is why we ruined their country.

Try and stay on topic though people! I love Lothar because he stirs up debate provacatively, he's a real agressive "Devil's Adovcate". You guys cut out the personal attacks ok?

I have to say that lothar does raise a good point.

Who decides the value of a human life? A large faction of anti-choice folks were pro-war when it began. These same people excused the death and destruction of thousands of lives on the other side of the world and still wail and gnash their teeth over a mass of fetal tissue.

I actually entered a debate with an anti-choice advocate and he actually said that he didn't care how many people our military killed UNTIL we stopped the "slaughter" of "the unborn". He cited the number of abortions in the US at the time in order to show that it is comparable to the killing we've done overseas -- as if one justifies the other.

But the problem is with consistency. Religious beliefs are anything but consistent. Anti-choice advocates mostly argue from a religious point of view, which means that rational argument pretty much gets thrown out the window.

And I know that sounds anti-religion, but it's just the structure of religious belief. Religions are based on traditions, rituals and interpretations of religious writings - some of which could actually contradict eachother when scrutinized carefully. "Thou shall not kill", afterall, seems quite straightforward and yet it doesn't automatically exempt anyone from supporting war. Religion is a "feeling" that something is right without having proof.

And we all have "feelings" of what the right thing is, whether we're religious or not. The problem is how important it is to legislate these feelings with our government.

The thing with the abortion question is that when viewed with cold rational logic, it is something that can't really be stopped and is probably not worth stopping through government intervention.

But none of these hot button issues are ever analized by cold rational logic.

ozoneocean
Abortion isn't just only for women who've been raped, victims of incest, or the fatally ill. Any woman should be able to have an abortion safely if that's her choice. Abortions are not things that are done lightly or casually. It's her body and she should be able to do what she wants with it.

Here's my view. Rape, I say yes to an abortion, since the mother shouldn't ave to live with that reminder and the child will be forever haunted when they find out about it. If the mother would die or the baby wouldn't live long/have a terrible life from a disease, then I still say yes.

Incest. How can you be a victim of incest? If the mother didn't want it, that's rape, to which I have already stated my view. If the conception will cause my second reason for yes, then okay. However, if the incestuous action was entirely consentual, then no.

That's the big point. You agreed to the act that caused the child, then you have to deal with the consequences. Thats why people take steps to prevent pregnancy. If you got pregnant and don't want the child, there's another option. It's called adoption. At least give the child to people who want it. Don't just kill it. I don't care about the debate on whether the foetus is a person yet or not, the point is it will become a person. Therefore, it should be born and be raised in a family that will love and care for the child.

No woman should be allowed to get an abortion just because she feels like it. There has to be a good reason behind it

I'm fairly certain that every abortion has a good reason behind it.

And if I ever found out I was the product of incest, I'd probably kill myself. No joke. Incest is absolutely a great reason for abortion.

yeahduff
I'm fairly certain that every abortion has a good reason behind it.

And if I ever found out I was the product of incest, I'd probably kill myself. No joke. Incest is absolutely a great reason for abortion.

ditto.

and people, PLEASE do reserech on adoption rates and how things are done in the system. adopting isn't easy for a lot of people, and not to meition in many areas, the adoption rates are VERY low so the kids end up having to live in children's homes and having to expernice all sorts of hardships before they FINALLY get adopted later in life. because of that, they have many issues in life. it's so easy to say that every child "saved" from abortion by putting up for adoption will go to an loving, nice home when you know NOTHING of how the actual adoption processes go.
Sure, some children ends up having happy lives and made it successfuly in life... but that's not the Majority of them as much as you would like to believe.

so don't assume that it'll be all fine and dandy for EVERY children out there. like I said earlier in the thread, I know people who went without real parents for a long time who went to the same school with me who kept on getting bonuced from foster families to foster families. didn't even get adopted until they were in thier late teens, and that was right when they were this close to becoming adults. a long time to go without postive parential infucles, wouldn't you say?
the majority of them that I knew did drugs, commited plenty of crimes, and even attempted suidice.
in fact this one kid who commited suidice, I learned later on that he was an product of incest. I can't help but wonder if he discovered that and that was why he commited suidice.
only the few out of them that I knew, choose not to do any of that and dediced to focus on the more postive aspects of life, even though they had issues with wanting to be loved.

people who keeps on saying things about how adoption is better clearly has never had a firsthand expernice of how the majority of foster kids expernice things. it pisses me off. >=0

Life is just as bad for people with their birth parents. I can tell you stories that would keep you up at night. I guarenfuckingtee it.

Still though, on abortion, I find it wrong it wrong and disgusting. But hey, I think I got better things to worry about. Let women have their babies murdered. They wanna get it done, let them.

Rich
Life is just as bad for people with their birth parents. I can tell you stories that would keep you up at night. I guarenfuckingtee it.

Still though, on abortion, I find it wrong it wrong and disgusting. But hey, I think I got better things to worry about. Let women have their babies murdered. They wanna get it done, let them.

yes, it's true that there's some pretty bad parents with thier blood-related children... but if the rates shows, the most children that has the most negative amount of expernices comes from foster families and from children's homes, more than the children with the bad parents.

as for the other thing, that's your opinion. I don't think it's murder. after all, it's just a mass of tissue that grows and hasn't even experniced REAL LIFE yet in terms of eating, pooping, BREATHING the air of the world, LEARNING by seeing and feeling the world, Being held by parents, etc...

Murder is when you kill a full-bodied person that have at least experniced real life in those terms. But of course, that's just me.