ozoneocean
If the decision to abort is ever really that vapid, can it remain so through the process? It won't be so again...

Why does everybody seem to think abortions are so easy? Even when medical science makes the process smoother, society and psychology still puts a weight on the woman's shoulders.

I don't think the process of abortion is easy but just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it's automatically better. Birth isn't exactly an easy procedure either what with the labour, the pain and the possible complications. Women have been known to unexpectedly die in childbirth.

Fathers should only get more of a say when they have the ability to bear the child instead.

Then people shouldn't be asking the father for child support. If people didn't think he should have any say on what happens, then he shouldn't be expected to be involved with the end result. Some fathers can't even afford child support but they get punished for not paying anyway. Why should they get punished for a decision someone else made?

In fact, wouldn't this be the ultimate form of pro-choice? Pro-choice not just for the woman but for the man as well?

Aurora Moon
I firmly believe that the adoption system needs to be fixed. but until that day, you can't really say that giving it up for adoption would be actually be a postive expernice or a better expernice for the baby, espeically if it grows up and it still hadn't been adopted into a family yet.

I fully agree that I cannot say that they will have a positive or better experience. But I also think that I cannot say that they will have a negative or worse experience. That's because they've never been born. Will the baby be adopted or left in the adoption system? Will the baby have good foster parents or bad foster parents? Will the baby grow up to be an upstanding citizen or a criminal? Nobody will know because that baby had never left the womb.

Which is why some people give up their babies for adoption. They're not selfish, mean or ignorant. While you recognize the negative aspects of the adoption system, they recognize the positive aspects of the adoption system. They may feel that while they can't provide the care and love the baby needs, someone else will be able to and that someone else will adopt their baby. Maybe someone will adopt the baby, maybe someone wouldn't but you'll never know if you sucked the fetus out of your womb.

It's all a matter of persepctive. If in your point of view, the baby has a good chance of having a loving home, a decent life and a bright future, wouldn't you then be selfish for aborting the child anyway?

.: Black Kitty :.

yeah. it could also depend on the viewpoint.

for me, conidsering my family's problems when it comes to the complications of birthing an competely healthy baby (which is kind of a rare thing condisering that every baby aways had something wrong, even only mild problems), and having witnessed the downright ingorant attudites about deaf people, that's why I'm pro-choice on abortion.

because I can't really imagine anybody actually wanting an child that would had to be taken care for the rest of thier lives, even when that child turned into an adult. Thats if the baby born had some of the more exemete problems that my related family(aunts, cousins etc) has been known to have.
After all, a person would have to be some kind of rare saint if they didn't mind changing diapers for the rest of thier life, charting an wheelchair around, and racking up debt with the hosptial bills every time something went wrong with your child because of her/his serve handicap.

I also can't even picture foster parents taking care of that kind of child properly like they're supposed to be taken care of.

why, that child who can't even take care of herself/himself even when he's an adult wouldn't certainly know happiness or anytihng else in the same way other human beings do.

that's why I think the way I do.

Abortion.

My point of view is that all teenager should be taught safer sex and have access to birth control. 99.9% of unwanted babies are the result of unprotected sex.

The problem isn't abortion, it's unprotected sex.

Should abortion remain an option? Not if the Daddy says no. It's his baby too.

Just my opinion.

mykill
Abortion.

My point of view is that all teenager should be taught safer sex and have access to birth control. 99.9% of unwanted babies are the result of unprotected sex.

The problem isn't abortion, it's unprotected sex.

except the the majority of abortions in the US are by women who already have children. Sure, it may still be unprotected sex, but what exactly don't they know after the first kid?

But I'm all for teaching children about sex and birth control before they become sexually active. Not only would that cut down on the teenage birth rate, but also might expose sexual predators sooner.

I also think birth control should be readily available and free in the schools.

Should abortion remain an option? Not if the Daddy says no. It's his baby too.

Just my opinion.

I understand it's your opinion. It's my opinion that he's not a daddy until the baby is born and the only thing he has a right to is the original sperm cell. Everything else that follows is a result of the work of the woman's body.

The very biased terminology being used here shows how the pro-choice movement starts losing the arguement before it begins.

There is no mother or father until there's a baby.

There is no baby until the fetus is born.

There is no fetus until it stops being an embryo

There is no embryo until the fertilized cell is implanted on the uterin wall.

There is no fertilized cell until the egg is penetrated by the sperm.

There is no sperm until there's sex.

But people start have started calling a fertilized cell a "baby" and therefore disagree with the so-called morning after pill which just prevents implantation of a fertilized cell smaller than a period at the end of a sentence.

If we accept that that is a "baby", then why not the egg and the sperm? Don't spill your seeds wastefully, men. That's a baby! Thousands of babies, in fact.

To me, aborting the sperm, cell, embryo and fetus is fine. (Yep, right up until the contractions start. I'm a purist).

The problem comes in our differing senses of morality. Formed by science or religion or culture. And it's different for everyone.

But that's the point, isn't it? It's different for everyone and therefore IMPOSSIBLE to govern. If you are vehemently anti-choice, then you make sure that you preach your word to those you want to without curtailing their civil rights.

But why do we need government action? What does it really matter in the overall scheme of thing if our government sits back and says "you guys take care of this, it's nothing to do with us!"

Take note all you people who complain about "big government" or "intrusive government" or "excessive government" or to those of you who think some folks are "too politically correct" or "too sensitive".

Because if you believe ANY of those things listed in the bold paragraph above than you are nothing but a hypocrite if you're anti-choice. You are guilty of the same belief system, but just about different things.

It seems to me that if we are having so many abortions in this country, and more than 80% of this country purports to be Christian, and a large percentage of Christians are against abortion, then the problem is that people don't agree with this particular rule of the church.

Black Kitty
I don't think the process of abortion is easy but just because something is difficult doesn't mean that it's automatically better

That’s not the point BK. The point is that people seem to think that a woman’s reasons for having an abortion are always vapid and that it’s an easy choice to make.
It’s not.

Black Kitty
Then people shouldn't be asking the father for child support. If people didn't think he should have any say on what happens, then he shouldn't be expected to be involved with the end result

This is based on the misconception that childbirth and conception involves some kind of universal legal transaction: It doesn’t. Not many countries place a legal obligation on the farther to raise or even pay for the child. And even in the countries where they do, there are still hurdles that can be insurmountable to some:
You still have to prove who the farther was.
You have to make sure he pays.
You can’t stop him from disappearing or even leaving the country.

Even when it’s just simply a cultural expectation that the farther participates, that doesn’t mean he has to. All too frequently they don’t.

-And so it comes down to the woman. It's her body and life that are directly impacted. That's 'life' in terms of 'risk of death', but also life in terms of her ability to support herself, relations with her familly etc.

Really quick since I have a date with permanent markers and three murals. :(

ozoneocean
That’s not the point BK. The point is that people seem to think that a woman’s reasons for having an abortion are always vapid and that it’s an easy choice to make.
It’s not.

Oh I don't deny that it's not an easy choice to make. But that isn't the case for all women out there. There are irresponsible people everywhere in this world and pregnancy doesn't magically make people responsible and thoughtful.

This is based on the misconception that childbirth and conception involves some kind of universal legal transaction: It doesn’t. Not many countries place a legal obligation on the farther to raise or even pay for the child. And even in the countries where they do, there are still hurdles that can be insurmountable to some:
You still have to prove who the farther was.
You have to make sure he pays.
You can’t stop him from disappearing or even leaving the country.

Even when it’s just simply a cultural expectation that the farther participates, that doesn’t mean he has to. All too frequently they don’t.

-And so it comes down to the woman. It's her body and life that are directly impacted. That's 'life' in terms of 'risk of death', but also life in terms of her ability to support herself, relations with her familly etc.

If I had more time, I would go back and read some info about child support but I don't so I'm doing this off of memory. For sure in North America, you do have a legal obligation to provide child support. If you do not pay, there are different ways to make sure you do. This can range from withholding your driver's license to outright taking it out of your pay check.

Sure he can move out of the country and sure he can dodge requests to make sure he isn't the father...but why is it the man's responsibility to get out of a decision the mother makes?

I do not deny that it is the mother's life and health being impacted here. But when a mother makes a decision to keep the child, she's also deciding that the man has to be a father. She is not only impacting her life but the father's. If she wants to keep the baby, that's fine but if the father doesn't want it, then what reasoning does she have to ask the father to support her decision?

.: Black Kitty :.

Oh I don't deny that it's not an easy choice to make. But that isn't the case for all women out there. There are irresponsible people everywhere in this world and pregnancy doesn't magically make people responsible and thoughtful.

but that would also apply to anything else... there's a fair amount of irresponsible female drivers who uses thier cellphones and other stuff during driving, and also plenty of irresponisble women who likes to stay out late at night and drink heavily every week, even though that puts them at risk to many male preadtors.

So do that mean that all women shouldn't ever drive, and be prevented to stay out at night or even prevented from drinking whatever they want even though they're adults?


as for the child support question.. I personally think that the father shouldn't be expected to pay child support at all, espeically if he was being responsible about using an condom, etc..

After all, there's a fair amount of women who actually stopped using thier birth control pills and thier morning after pills without even telling the guy that they stopped doing that.

so if the guy thought they were parcating into safe sex and that there was to be no child born from this, then you can't really blame them. espeically if the women did things without the father's consent or knowledge.

But... I do support the idea of child support on certain conditions:
that the father be actually in a relationship with the said mother for one year or more. Being together that long, he should had expected that being in an serious relationship like that that it might had happened eventally.
after all, if you were togeher with a woman for like, say, 4 years then it's pretty serious. why leave her over a baby?

or if they were married to the woman and was there when the baby was born, and then dediced to leave them both.

and I also think that the MOTHER should also pay child support, if she suddenly changes her mind and dedices that she wasn't meant to be a mother after the baby is born.

this has happened, you know. they leave the babies with the fathers who wanted the children, but couldn't support the child on his own. and they get up and leave somewhere else... and yet rarely is the law on the father's side when that happens. I don't think that's very fair...

Aurora Moon
but that would also apply to anything else... there's a fair amount of irresponsible female drivers who uses thier cellphones and other stuff during driving, and also plenty of irresponisble women who likes to stay out late at night and drink heavily every week, even though that puts them at risk to many male preadtors.

So do that mean that all women shouldn't ever drive, and be prevented to stay out at night or even prevented from drinking whatever they want even though they're adults?

Actually, in some countries it is a criminal offense to talk on your cell phone while driving. If you were doing some crazy things like changing your clothes, putting on makeup, cooking dinner or reading while driving, a police officer can pull you over.

But I know that's not your point but neither is it my point that people can't do things just because there are irresponsible people out there. However, the impression I'm getting from this thread is that since abortion is such a difficult decision, women who choose it must have responsible reasons for doing so. That's not necessarily true.

Sex itself can be a difficult decision but people make it recklessly all the time.

and I also think that the MOTHER should also pay child support, if she suddenly changes her mind and dedices that she wasn't meant to be a mother after the baby is born.

If I remember correctly, in some places the mother usually has to as well regardless of whether she wants to be the custodial parent or not. She will have to pay a certain percentage before she can tap into child support. Which in some places, the father cannot have a say over how it's spent either.

I think it's safe to say that if you're in a healthy supportive relationship, the father will not just get up and ditch the mother just because she's pregnant. In those cases, it's a non-issue.

Pro-choice isn't just about mothers aborting babies (or fetus, pounds of flesh, whatever,) it's about mothers keeping babies too. If you have a mother who wants a baby but a father who doesn't want a baby, then pro-choice generally sides with the mother while the father is given the role of piggy bank.

Yes pro-choice is about giving power to the woman, letting her have control over her own body and deciding for herself her own future. But what pro-choice never mentions is that it's also about taking power from everyone else. Unless you don't support enforced child support either in which case, you're all about empowering everyone. :)

Anyhow, I'm just being annoying and stiring the pot a little. I'm perfectly fine with the pro-choice situation we have now for obvious reasons. It's selfish of me but I don't have to compromise my ideals should I ever have an unwanted pregnancy.

Of course, this wouldn't be an issue period if I just practice safe sex. :D

.: Black Kitty :.

FinbarReilly

Black Kitty
Of course, this wouldn't be an issue period if I just practice safe sex. :D

Nope; it's not an issue if you practice abstinence or homosexual sex. Safe sex isn't 100%, silly...

FR

True indeed~

Although you can come pretty close these days with safe sex. You'll have to be pretty unlucky if the condom, the birth control and the morning after pill fails you. ^^;;;

.: Black Kitty :.

... getting radio therapy does a pretty good job of making sex safe. -for either partner.

And on that note, I remember the case of a woman who was in a fine relationship with her husband. But then she got cancer... They knew the radio therapy would make her sterile, so she had a series of eggs removed and fertilized by his sperm. These were then frozen for insemination at a later date because they didn't want to have kids right then, (for obvious reasons).

Jump forward a few years and they're divorced. He's got a new family and kids. He won't let her use the fertilised eggs. He wants them destroyed, even though it's her only chance to ever have her own child. European law states that if one party wants the eggs destroyed then that's what will be done... And so because he's a selfish fuck-nut, she will be childless forever. Her last eggs have been destroyed because of him.

I don't think the man should have much of a say personally. One way or the other.
But then you could turn it around, with the hypothetical situation of the man being sterile and having his last sperm destroyed just because the woman whose eggs they’d fertilised didn’t want the child… I think in this case you should rule for the egg & sperm and the single parent who wants it to live: just to be fair and because the things are external to the body and can be implanted in a surrogate. So then the Euro laws are wrong and so was I, there is a situation where the man should have a say.

Just a thought-This thread will never change anyones mind about abortion. Whether for or against, the arguments on both sides will only reinforce their previous opinions on the topic, even if its something like "ZOMGZ UR SUTPID!!1!" People see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear in order to keep their universe in order.

That said, I personally think abortion is neccessarry, however sad it is, no child should be born unwanted.

Black Kitty

Aurora Moon
I'm getting from this thread is that since abortion is such a difficult decision, women who choose it must have responsible reasons for doing so. That's not necessarily true.

Sex itself can be a difficult decision but people make it recklessly all the time.

Yes, it's true that there's been some women who made poor desicisons regarding abortion and came to regret it. However, I have to say that if people dediced to outlaw abortion based on what a FEW people did with it, then I have to say they're hurting the majority's rights.

and yes, I agree that there are people who do sex recklessly. it irks me to tell the truth. But in a way I guess a lot of humans can't just help themselves. after all, pleasure is a big movatior in all things, and humans can easily get addicted to the feeling.

If I remember correctly, in some places the mother usually has to as well regardless of whether she wants to be the custodial parent or not. She will have to pay a certain percentage before she can tap into child support. Which in some places, the father cannot have a say over how it's spent either.

Yeah, I know. in some states they actually do this. however, sadly in most states that's not the cause. it's usually only the father that has to pay support in such a case. Because you know, Men are such evil creatures, they're the only one who leaves an spouse high and dry! :roll:

I think it's safe to say that if you're in a healthy supportive relationship, the father will not just get up and ditch the mother just because she's pregnant. In those cases, it's a non-issue.

Well, they don't ditch just because the woman's pregant, that's true.. but there's plenty of cases where men, as well as some women, suddenly felt that the relationship wasn't working for whatever reason. so they just get up and leave forever. despite the fact that they just had a baby and stuff.

I feel Daddies don't get any respect and I'm not sure I buy the "it's my body, I'll do what I want" argument.

This is colored by my being gay perhaps. I never had unprotected sex when I was single. AIDS is too big a risk. And AIDS is real for breeders. With the added reality of possible pregnancy, I feel there is no fucking excuse for unmarried people to not use condoms - the 'pill' won't stop an std and anyone who is sexually active could have SOMETHING. HIV has no symptoms until the immune system collapses.

I am disgusted by unprotected sex, there is no excuse as far as I am concerned. Emotionally I feel every mother of an unwanted baby should have her tubes tied, as should the father. Let those breeders breed no more.

Fathers are denied rights as fathers. Mother put up babies for adoption without the consent of daddies eager to raise the kid themself -regularly. This begins with babies being considered one with the Mother at conception. I don't buy it. Sure, the fetus is not a human - but it is not the mother's fetus. The fetus belongs to both parents, the mommy didn't create that thing all by herself.

I agree it's a touchy subject. I don't like the idea personally for myself, I could never do it. But I think everyones entitled to their own opinion. I think it aweful, yes, that some people find it to be another way of birth control, however I can't help but also sympothise with those who were doing everything right (condom and all) and still ended up with a baby. If you're not ready for a baby you're not ready. And SOOOO many children that get put up for adoption each year that NEVER find good homes or even homes at all. I think that if a baby is say...five months along in the mother's belly THAT should be considered murder. But I think depending on the stage of the embreo(sp?) in the mother's belly, the choice should be hers (and the father's) choice to make.
Same goes for if someone gets raped and get pregnent? They did not CHOOSE to not do it. They were forced against their will. A lot of people might say: 'She should say something' or 'it's her fault' Rape is a VERY powerful/life changing thing that can happen to ANYONE ( not to mention ANY gender ) if a young girl gets pregnent and is forced to have a baby, can you imagion the emotional scars that are going to be left behind after being raped as well? I heard a story a few years ago about a fourteen year old girl who got raped by three men in an allyway. She went to the Hospital to get help. The Dr. who worked at the medical station personally did not beleive in the morning after pill much less abortion.He refused to help her to pretect her from getting pregnent. Wanna know what happend? She got pregnent and was unable to get rid of it. AFTER being raped.

Abortion ( or the morning after pill ) is that person's choice. If it gets banned we'll wind up with back ally abortions where young girls across the globe will die. And/or we will end up with a lot of abused/neglected children with parents who weren't ready to be parents as well as more and more children without homes.

OK, here's my take on this.

There are three times abortion should be allowed...

1. Incest. Incest is disgusting and damages the gene pool. Inbred human beings suffer from more diseases and are more likely to have brain damage. We, as a society, cannot afford to have massive amounts of inbred people running around. Look at what it did to Arkansas and West Virginia.

2. Rape. If a woman is raped, she should not be forced to carry a rapist's child.

3. If the pregnancy poses a threat to the woman's life and/or health. If having the child will kill the woman, she NEEDS to abort it. A small baby will donate less to society than a grown woman will. And then there is still the option of the woman attempting to have another child in the future with hopes of no fatal complications.

What you are going to say...

Q. It's her body, she can do whatever she wants with it!

A. If she's stupid enough to have unprotected premarital sex and then bitch that she got pregnant, then she has absolutely zero right to bitch. NONE! At ALL!

Q. What if the condom broke, causing her to get pregnant?

A. This is a tough one. Yes, it is not her fault in this case, nor the fathers. But there is a solution. They could give the child to an adoption agency so that a family who wants a child but is unable to have one can raise them. Again, no reason for abortion.

Q. What if she can't afford the child?

A. Again, adoption.

Q. What if her religion has some dumbass rule about not having more kids or stupid shit like that?

A. Her fault for having sex. Unless it was rape or incest, she should have to carry the kid. Adoption will take it off her hands when she gives birth.

Q. What if she had cheated on her husband and got pregnant?

A. Her fault for cheating. Cheaters, both male and female, are nothing more than liars and cannot be trusted. She should be forced to deal with the domestic turmoil she caused, and be forced to carry the kid. If she doesn't want it, adoption will work.

Q. What if she lives in a 3rd world country?

A. I'm American. I don't worry about the laws of third world countries. Thus, it isn't my problem. Let them deal with it by their own society's rules.

Q. What if she has an icky STD?

A. She should carry the kid. The kid won't necessarily have the STD, so everything might still work out. If the kid is infected, they'll have to make the best of the time they have.

(NOTE: There can be no love when discussing abortion. This makes me sad. :()

only in instances of rape or when the mother's life is threatened. I'm against abortion that has no strings attatched because it teaches people to fuck like rabbits without facing the responsibilities and consequences of their actions.


I also dont like total banning of abortion because rape and threatening diseases are out of the mother's control.

Forget for a moment the moral questions.

Think instead of the economics. Is it worth assigning law enforcement officers to investigate every miscarriage?

Is it worth invading a woman't body to determine proof or innocence?

Is it worth arresting a woman found guilty of abortion? How much do you want to spend on this?

How many lives are worth ruining to enforce something that not everyone even agrees is a crime?

There's a cold calculation that has to be made when considering giving the government more control over your lives. One is whether you want your taxes increased and the other is whether you want more government interference.

Ronson has a point. It WOULD be awefully difficult to regulate anyways and would cost us a lot of money in tax dollars to enforce.

Hell, that's the first intelligent argument for abortion I have ever seen.

Rich
This is a tough one. Yes, it is not her fault in this case, nor the fathers. But there is a solution. They could give the child to an adoption agency so that a family who wants a child but is unable to have one can raise them. Again, no reason for abortion.

Adoption isn't always the best answer or course of action. Please look into hte social service system and tell me how these kids are better off? Many of them actually don't get adopted, have unstable lives, and some end up on the street. There are a lot of crack addicted babies given up for adoption, and, also, black babies (I'm sorry) don't get adopted as much as white babies. There's never a garuntee your baby is going to get adopted. Or adopted by a good family.

Well this is land the land of the free, is it not?

Women rule their domain, and i think that includes what grows inside of their said domain. Iam a guy, and i know i would be pretty pissed if someone told me that i could't say...have sex again using my god given...parts.

Its pretty stupid for a government to make laws that govern a person own body, male or female.
Its also pretty foolish to say "well she had sex this is what she gets"
thats like saying "that guy had money, he deserved to get mugged."
Is the fetus a person? I don't know. But as long as its staying in another persons body i think it falls under the body's owners command.

"YOU LIVE UNDER MY ROOF YOU WILL FOLLOW MY RULES!"

Phantom Penguin
Its also pretty foolish to say "well she had sex this is what she gets"
thats like saying "that guy had money, he deserved to get mugged."

Barring rape, does a woman have a choice in having sex? Absolutely.
Does a guy with money have a choice in getting mugged? No.

Your comparison is flawed at its very core.

Yeah, but a guy can have sex sans consequences. I tell you what, the day they can impregnate a man, is the day I say abortions should be illegal.

Rich
Barring rape, does a woman have a choice in having sex? Absolutely.
Does a guy with money have a choice in getting mugged? No.

That's the culture of victim blame, like when someone gets lung cancer because they smoked cigarettes.

Jillers
That's the culture of victim blame, like when someone gets lung cancer because they smoked cigarettes.

It says right on the package that the cigarrettes will hurt your lungs! People smoke them, and it's their fault they get lung cancer. You can't always gloss over things when the victim is the cause of their own misery.

Rich

Jillers
That's the culture of victim blame, like when someone gets lung cancer because they smoked cigarettes.

It says right on the package that the cigarrettes will hurt your lungs! People smoke them, and it's their fault they get lung cancer. You can't always gloss over things when the victim is the cause of their own misery.

yeah, what he said. ciggerates weren't a very good example...

But it's like jillers said though, that men can have sex without worrying about getting pregant. it's the women who has to go though all that crap... carrying it, and possibly having to stay home to take care of it and stuff. whereas men just have to worry about being able to support it finically with thier jobs, that's it....that's if they aren't planning to get inloved anymore as fathers go.
yes, the women could NOT have sex, but what about thier boyfriends and husbands? thier boyfriends and Husband tends to expect sex out of an relationship, snice they see it as a imporant part of the relationship life. so they'll be pushing for it, and the women will comply, thinking that if they don't that thier men will go elsewhere and cheat on them. in some cases they're RIGHT about that.

and not to metion that sometimes some women CAN'T afford to get pregant, even if to just put it up for adoption.... espeically when it comes to thier jobs. there are plenty of jobs out there that doesn't really support manterinity leave, and sees pregant women as an type of libablity.... so if she missed way too many workdays due to the pregant thing, she could easily get fired legally. espeically if they clearly state in thier contract that they do not support maternity leave, etc.
sure, she could still have it anyway, but what good is giving it up for apodtion and having some sort of "clean consenice" if she ends up being unable to pay house bills, and ends up homeless?

oh yes, she's unable to find another job, she ended up losing her home because she wasn't able to afford it.. but at least an Baby is out there in some childrens' home or with foster parents with an unclear future for it, with an chance at life! (rolls eyes)

I AM SOOOOO SICk of hearing about abortion from amerikans !!!!
what about the 100,000+ Iraqi civilians killed so far in THIS current invasion ????
lets have a national debate about that you F-ing hypocrits !!!!!!!!!!

lothar
I AM SOOOOO SICk of hearing about abortion from amerikans !!!!
what about the 100,000+ Iraqi civilians killed so far in THIS current invasion ????
lets have a national debate about that you F-ing hypocrits !!!!!!!!!!

O_o uhhh.... I'm an american, and i'm pretty much against the war, for that exact reason which you posted, thank you very much. so I don't see how I'm an hypocrite.

Dont take it personal Aurora , my outrage is more directed at the American Media , Organized religion , politicians , ETC. THEY are the hypocrits !!!
dont pretend to represent , i know and you know you are the minority in your motivation to opose the WAR , i think most Arericans want out of Iraq because of US military deaths not the faceless citizens of Iraq, that and the fact it is a financial drain, or that its making America look weak .
i'm just guna generalize here and say most americans are HYPOCRITS because they seam to believe human life decreases in value from the moment of conception !

lothar
I AM SOOOOO SICk of hearing about abortion from amerikans !!!!
what about the 100,000+ Iraqi civilians killed so far in THIS current invasion ????
lets have a national debate about that you F-ing hypocrits !!!!!!!!!!

1) That is relivant to this issue how?
2) Yes, america is all that is wrong with the world. It is our fault it rains on your birthday and we also invented SIDS
3) learn to spell america
4) i only killed 24 Iraqis. Its not my fault if more died after i left.

lothar
Dont take it personal Aurora , my outrage is more directed at the American Media , Organized religion , politicians , ETC. THEY are the hypocrits !!!
dont pretend to represent , i know and you know you are the minority in your motivation to opose the WAR , i think most Arericans want out of Iraq because of US military deaths not the faceless citizens of Iraq, that and the fact it is a financial drain, or that its making America look weak .
i'm just guna generalize here and say most americans are HYPOCRITS because they seam to believe human life decreases in value from the moment of conception !

No,
Human life decreases in value when people use the life they have been given to make horribly steriotypical remarks about a country they seem to know everything about.

Iam right arn't I? You did major in American studies in college?

We're still debating this? While I don't agree with abortion, and think it should be illegal, I honestly don't give a fuck about it enough to really push for it. I do have better things to do with my time.

Phantom Penguin
4) i only killed 24 Iraqis. Its not my fault if more died after i left.

No real soldier ever reveals how many lives he's taken. No real soldier would openly speak of it so casually either.