Well now I've heard it all. Those of you who may have read some of my posts know i'm an ardent anti-racist, some would say to a fault, but even I could not stomach this mockery of legitimate black anger.

In this clip some white guy refers to some accounting as having disappeared down a "black hole", by which he meant to signify it's vanishing is so complete it has attained infinite mass.

Watch this.

Usually I am willing to accept that many black people are pissed at us and come by it honestly. They have been treated as second class citizens and worse for nearly two centuries in this country and only until recently have been afforded rights and respect due to any American.

But this exchange was fucking bonkers. These people who jumped down this guys throat were morons.

How can you rise to a station with civic responsibility and not have the basic eighth grade science knowledge to understand that the term black hole refers to a gravity well and not some hidden racial epithet?

These guys should apologize to their constituents for seeking public office when they are clearly so paifully ignorant.

No wonder our government is so screwed up.

the guy in that news clip is a moron , he's completely missed the point !!

people are NOT black or white .
those words were chosen a long time ago by europeans to make themselves feel better about being tottal dicks to everybody else on the planet !


MALCOLM X

lothar
the guy in that news clip is a moron , he's completely missed the point !!

people are NOT black or white .
those words were chosen a long time ago by europeans to make themselves feel better about being tottal dicks to everybody else on the planet !


MALCOLM X

Don't quote Malcolm X to me. This was no veiled slur. This guy was making a reasonable analogy to a scientific term. The other guy was spoiling for a fight.

This kind of dumb stunt is almost worse than the racism that was not implied. When this nozzle asks for an apology for the term black hole, white racist assholes can point to him and say, "look these black guys are unreasonable, all they do is moan about nothing and see racism where it doesn't exist anymore."

Why do you think it was Fox news that broke this? Ignorance is a menace no matter what mouth it dribbles from.

wut ?
i think you misunderstand what i was saying
why can't i quote Malcolm X ?
i thought it was relavent to the topic.
my point being ; the use of the words "black" and " white " in regards to people IS the problem.

Black and white are just words, they arent the problem, its how you use them or percieve them.

In this case the guy was talking about a cosmic phenomenom, the use of Black in the term "black" hole refers to the absence of light due to the highly compressed mass being so great that even light cannot escape.

There was no racial bias or subtext either purposely or unwittingly implied. When you quote Malcolm X on this matter, you infer that using the word "black" in this instance is problematic and thus innapropriate.

The only thing that's a problem is assigning a racist subtext where none was intended. Calling someone a racist or racially insensitive is quite a serious charge, you better have more to back it up than an innocent usage of the term "black".

Words have to have meaning or we are doomed. People twisting meanings, playing semantic games and trying to make people fear words is in many ways just as heinous as those jerks who use actual hate speech.

Do you think a science teacher should not be allowed to use the term black hole in a science class? How about an English teacher giving a class on Arthur C. Clark?

Why stop there? Our sun is referred to as a yellow sun, I bet Asians might take offense.


If you ask me this white guy deserves an apology for being accused of racism for using a perfectly acceptable scientific term and those other two morons need to crack a fucking book.

I agree with Bobhhh, the topic of race is always a sensitive issue but some people stretch it waaaay to far.



That being said; What's with all the race topics lately?
I mean everywhere not just here, on a webcomic forum, but all over the net. Is this some kind of Obama effect? There's a thread below us saying Wall-E is racist and another in WTH stating people who hate spicy foods are racist. -__-


I know race is a pressing issue, but a while ago fake news source the onion released a little editorial comic that I thought was humorous and also had a biting truth;

U.s. when not discussing minorities:
Picture included blacks, jews, asians, mexicans and other minorities happy and getting along with white people arm in arm.

-on the other side-
U.S. when discussing minorities:
There is unrest and rioting in the picture, fires are burning and it's mayhem all around.

(if you can find the comic I'd be very very grateful)

What i thought was genius about this comic even though it was just a troll for shock-factor; it can be taken both ways.
A racist is going to see it as 'yeah minorities are awful!' but anyone else is going to see it illustrates the unrest the topic always gives everyone- and sometimes best not discussed at all. From either end.

@Skull, yeah, at certain times some topics are all the rage ^_^

lothar
wut ?
i think you misunderstand what i was saying
why can't i quote Malcolm X ?
i thought it was relavent to the topic.
my point being ; the use of the words "black" and " white " in regards to people IS the problem.

I have to say that Lothar is 100% right on his take here. As usual he's pretty damn sharp and people don't seem to get it. :(

YES the fellow who took offence was a tool. But the reason that he took offence goes back to the fact that while words like "back" and "white" are used intelligently to describe actual colours and phenomena, they're also stupidly and incorrectly used to describe the skin tones of people who have nothing to do with those words: skin tone varying from dark brown to pale yellowy pink.

That's given the words "black" and "white" a massive amount of really quite silly baggage, and the baggage they already have from older aspects of culture (black is night, scary evil, burnt, impenetrable, white is bright, good, clear etc), gets wrongly added onto the idiot conceit of race.

So for that man in be so injudicious as to use the term "black hole" to a group of fellows who were not really in the mood for talking about scientific metaphor, was a little foolish.

Agreed that it wasn't the smartst move to make, the reaction could have been expected, but the fact of the matter is that, although I agree that racism is wrong, people these days don't seem to know the boundaries of what is and what is not racism. The fact that blackboards have to be called chalkboards, the fact it's discouraged to call black coffee black coffee, it's all getting just a bit out of hand. Words are words, and unless they have intent behind them, they're just a random assortment of letters; some people just dont seem to have that down yet; for an intelligent species, people sure are dumb.

Seems to be a case of someone having a chip on their shoulder.

So I guess they'll need to change the name of black holes to "African-American holes".

ozoneocean
So for that man in be so injudicious as to use the term "black hole" to a group of fellows who were not really in the mood for talking about scientific metaphor, was a little foolish.

Huh? So you can't use color metaphyrs around ignorant people who can't see past their own predjudice?

I say we lock up physicists Anne Wheeling and John Wheeler for such blantant racism in coining the term in the first place during the 1960's.

Shouldn't whites and little people be insulted by the term "white dwarf"? Are American Indians proud of the term "red giant"?

Note: Using the term "black" to describe a sub-Saharan African or Aboriginise is a misnomer anyway because they actually have more skin pigmentation (or color)than their paler skinned relatives.

A little education goes a long way. Racism will disappear when confronted with the light of knowledge. Been there, done that, taught the class.

ozoneocean
@Skull, yeah, at certain times some topics are all the rage ^_^

lothar
wut ?
i think you misunderstand what i was saying
why can't i quote Malcolm X ?
i thought it was relavent to the topic.
my point being ; the use of the words "black" and " white " in regards to people IS the problem.

I have to say that Lothar is 100% right on his take here. As usual he's pretty damn sharp and people don't seem to get it. :(

YES the fellow who took offence was a tool. But the reason that he took offence goes back to the fact that while words like "back" and "white" are used intelligently to describe actual colours and phenomena, they're also stupidly and incorrectly used to describe the skin tones of people who have nothing to do with those words: skin tone varying from dark brown to pale yellowy pink.

That's given the words "black" and "white" a massive amount of really quite silly baggage, and the baggage they already have from older aspects of culture (black is night, scary evil, burnt, impenetrable, white is bright, good, clear etc), gets wrongly added onto the idiot conceit of race.

So for that man in be so injudicious as to use the term "black hole" to a group of fellows who were not really in the mood for talking about scientific metaphor, was a little foolish.

Yeah, "black" and "white" are dumb, antiquated ways to define a persons' skin tone. However, BOTH caucasians and African-American persons use the terms on themselves and when describing others in non-hateful ways.

Sounds like Central Collections has become a black holeThis is a simple analogy regarding how certain issues do not get addressed, or placed in a vacuous area that everybody ignores or pretends does not exist. I have used this analogy myself. Lots of popular science terms are used in ANY conversation. It's just moronic to think this was a racist statement. Even if it was in Texas.

However, I will say that the next thing out of the other guys mouth:

Someone
EXCUSE ME? A WHITE HOLE!

... WAS actually racially motivated. So why isn't anyone talking about that?

By the way, a white hole is a theoretical object that spits out matter from beyond its boundary in space time, rather than sucking it in. If Central Collections was a white hole, it would be a much worse problem. :)

I'm not even gonna talk about the "compromise" that the first guy offered, "The PINK hole". Make your own jokes for that one. lol!

I feel bad for the guy in the clip. He used a legitimate scientific term. Seeing him chastised for it is just clear evidence of how far overboard political correctness is getting. He's basically living out my nightmare... I always worry that somebody will twist something I say and imbue with some sort of racial, homophobic, or otherwise inflammatory meaning that I didn't intend.

What's more, it feels like his peers who chastised him were just waiting for something they could get offended by so they could "score one for the cause". Hey everybody! Look how progressive we are!

Gimme a break.

Ok. Next time I hear someone tell me that they FLIP burgers for a living I'd be so pissed that I'd call up the PC (politically correct) Police.

Then I'd start a protest group to ban the word FLIP in the English language. If black people managed to make the N word a bad racist word, why not make the F word a racist word?

You cannot say:

"That's a nice back flip!"
"The car flipped over in the accident."
"Just flip the switch."
"OMG He's flipping out!!!"

Yeah. That also includes the flipper of a dolphin. I'm gonna get the international board of politically correct science to RENAME THAT RACIST TERM RIGHT AWAY! If they dont do it, I'll set myself on fire!!!

I didn't even know what race was until a group of Shawnee kids beat the crap out of me as a child for not being Shawnee and walking in a Shawnee neighborhood (grew up between a Shawnee and a Seminole reservation). THAT was fun. My dad had to sit me down and explain why I was in a hospital bed for visiting a friend in the same neighborhood that the Shawnee lived in. (my friend is a Shawnee ironically, we still hang out). I live in a highly racially diverse area. On any given day I see and interact with at least three or more racial groups other than my own (usually Native-American, African-American, and Vietnamese). I'm color-blind, I really don't care who your ancestors are. What I've learned from long experience in this state and others is that racism will only continue to be a problem as long as people want it too. Whether they feel they were wronged, or that it gives them a sense of entitlement, folks will continue to hold on to these antiquated ideas.
Nobody would ever like to admit it to themselves but racism is carried on by both sides of the equation. Clips like this one seem to prove it.

SpANG
This is a simple analogy regarding how certain issues do not get addressed,

It's nothing to do with science, it's not even an analogy. It was used as a metaphor. And that's important because in metaphor you don't relate one thing to another, you replace one thing with another. It wasn't an analogy, that would be comparing the situations, or relating them.

When "Black" in that situation was already being used symbolically to define and describe a people, it's understandable that a man who's not used to thinking in metaphors like that wouldn't be able to switch gears and think of the word in yet another metaphorical sense.

bravo1102
I say we lock up physicists Anne Wheeling and John Wheeler for such blantant racism in coining the term in the first place during the 1960's.

WTF? This wasn't a scientific conversation. It has nothing at all to do with science, now you're behaving exactly like the silly fellow in the video who took offence lol!

The only thing science has to do with it is the place where that term comes from. But this was not a scientific context. The context is vitally important.
---------
I say we lock up people who take thimngs the wrong way. lol!

Sorry Zone, but there is no way you can criticize that guy for making a relevant metaphorical statement based on a cosmic phenomenom just because half of the term, which has far more practical and non racial applications, gets taken way out of context by some moron who doesn't know whay a black hole is.

Every 8th grader knows what a fucking black hole is. They even made a Disney movie about one, kinda.

The day we have to worry about using the word black to describe something that is ...well black, thats the day we better just pack up and move away from each other, because clearly there is no hope for mankind, or at least Americans.

This is just ignorance and stupidity at its finest and if those guys think they are scoring one for the struggle against racism, I'm afraid they're sadly mistaken.

I still think the white guy, oops exuse me, pinkish peach colored guy, deserves an apology.

As an ardent anti-racist, if someone called me a racist for using a scientific term, I'd bitch slap him. (metaphorically speaking of course)

ozoneocean
When "Black" in that situation was already being used symbolically to define and describe a people, it's understandable that a man who's not used to thinking in metaphors like that wouldn't be able to switch gears and think of the word in yet another metaphorical sense.

bravo1102
I say we lock up physicists Anne Wheeling and John Wheeler for such blantant racism in coining the term in the first place during the 1960's.

WTF? This wasn't a scientific conversation. It has nothing at all to do with science, now you're behaving exactly like the silly fellow in the video who took offence lol!

The only thing science has to do with it is the place where that term comes from. But this was not a scientific context. The context is vitally important.

I fail to see where in that video anyone said black to describe anything except the guy who had the misfortune of aiming a metaphor over the head of a couple of dumbass whiners.

So you suggest that we be limited to using metaphors with scientific references only to situations where we are discussing science? That's just plain wrong.

How many of us have used terms like "speed of light", "in a vacuum" or "in orbit" in a normal conversation, I dare say even you have. The context isn't anywhere near as important as the intent, and this guys intent was to stress the disappearance of vital information. If these guys were listening they could NOT have possibly gleaned a racist inference from his comment. Even not knowing the term black hole's meaning the resty of his sentence, "Central collections has become a xxxxxxxx", what exactly could the xxxxxx mean?

I mean come on. What did they think, in an open forum with African Americans present they truly thought he was saying that "Central collections has become a black guy, and that's bad for obvious reasons, you know because black people are bad"?

Obviously there WEREN'T thinking.

The fact is they stopped listening to him the moment he uttered the syllable "black"

To be "anti racist" to my way of thinking, you'd have to be against the very concept, which I am. :)

And that's the trouble with this whole situation, as long as these people ascribe to the artificial concept of "race", they'll always be victims of it. It's mythology invented by the Europeans that all the rest have enslaved themselves to.

This is why language is so important: It defines reality for people.
--------------

Of course there are MANY more and deeper problems with the whole thing, but right here it's in the language and it baffles me that so many people don't understand just how important language is.

ozoneocean
To be "anti racist" to my way of thinking, you'd have to be against the very concept, which I am. :)

And that's the trouble with this whole situation, as long as these people ascribe to the artificial concept of "race", they'll always be victims of it. It's mythology invented by the Europeans that all the rest have enslaved themselves to.

This is why language is so important: It defines reality for people.
--------------

Of course there are MANY more and deeper problems with the whole thing, but right here it's in the language and it baffles me that so many people don't understand just how important language is.

I don't doubt you are anti racist, but I think you are a bit too long down a semantic black hole. lol!

I demand an apology! Can I have an apology?
lol!

----
It's a modern conceit that terms are interchangeable and meanings aren't important. A modern conceit, but even so, scientists, intellectuals who write the important documents of our time still have to pay just as much attention to it as they always have- just responding to the "semantic" thing here. ;)

This is a great discussion. I was a little surprised by this:

zone
And that's the trouble with this whole situation, as long as these people ascribe to the artificial concept of "race", they'll always be victims of it. It's mythology invented by the Europeans that all the rest have enslaved themselves to.

I strongly suspect you didn't mean it this way, but it sure sounds like those Africans were just jumping at the chance to be working on that plantation! Europeans didn't enslave Africans, African's enslaved themselves! Threw themselves into the Ship's hold and shouted up amid all the death and despair "Are we there yet, are we there yet, are we there yet..."

But I agree. This weird terms "Race" really did screw a lot of things up. Look what happened with Role Playing Games!

mapaghimagsik
enlsave

Yeah, that's another instance of a word being used metaphorically, being taken the wrong way and stressing a meaning other than that which was intended. lol!

That seems to be the theme of this whole discussion and rightly so. :)

ozoneocean

mapaghimagsik
enlsave

Yeah, that's another instance of a word being used metaphorically, being taken the wrong way and stressing a meaning other than that which was intended. lol!

That seems to be the theme of this whole discussion and rightly so. :)

touche, my arch-nemesis!

In the words of the allegedly great one: "Words mean things!"

So when John McCain called his wife the C-word, was it metaphorical, or did he really mean, "black hole"?

mapaghimagsik

ozoneocean

mapaghimagsik
enlsave

Yeah, that's another instance of a word being used metaphorically, being taken the wrong way and stressing a meaning other than that which was intended. lol!

That seems to be the theme of this whole discussion and rightly so. :)

touche, my arch-nemesis!

In the words of the allegedly great one: "Words mean things!"

So when John McCain called his wife the C-word, was it metaphorical, or did he really mean, "black hole"?

Great now with one word, "Balck Hole", I can unwittingly insult overly touchy PC black people and angry femenists spoling for a fight.

Isn't language wonderful?

Ich bin einberliner!!

Properly used, "Black Hole" can be a slur for just about anyone.

ozoneocean
WTF? This wasn't a scientific conversation. It has nothing at all to do with science, now you're behaving exactly like the silly fellow in the video who took offence

That was the point of the reference, showing up how ridiculous the reaction to the reference was by using the example of the scientists who coined the term. :)

Scientific metaphors are valid in all sorts of real-life situations.

Science hasn't referred to races in about 40-50 years. It's about time we caught up. Been there, done that, taught the class.

soooo we should remove every English words that implies race?
brown bag
yellow light
black hole
white bread

okay that guy was just overly sensitive. does he even know what a black hole is? things go in and don't come out. i think that's the point he was trying to make.

would a politician really put himself out there and claim he was a racist in front of a diverse group like that? that clip is ridiculous.

bravo1102

ozoneocean
WTF? This wasn't a scientific conversation. It has nothing at all to do with science, now you're behaving exactly like the silly fellow in the video who took offence

That was the point of the reference, showing up how ridiculous the reaction to the reference was by using the example of the scientists who coined the term. :)

Scientific metaphors are valid in all sorts of real-life situations.

Science hasn't referred to races in about 40-50 years. It's about time we caught up. Been there, done that, taught the class.

It's not the words that matter or whether your ref is valid. The point is the context in which you use your metaphors and whether you audience will grasp them or not in that situation.

it's not like he is addressing uneducated individuals. he's talking to people that went to big colleges and got to their position by hopefully being smart.

also you can not be too sure who will and who will not grasp certain metaphors. but we use them anyway.

i saw that guy's face when they wanted him to apologize. It said "are you fucking kidding me?".

You'd be surprised. In the past I've frequently been floored at the lack of understanding exhibited by the people I've talked to, over relatively simple things that should be well within the fields of their own expertise.

The funny thing here is that so many people immediately thought of that as a purely scientific term, not at all realising that it was only a metaphor in this case. I wonder how many people here even realise when they speak metaphorically, use simile, analogy and what differences are, and the subtle differences and true meanings are of many of the words that they use all the time...?

I wouldn't claim to even be aware of all those that I myself use. The thing is, communication isn't a straight forward science, it's an art and anybody can get it wrong.