ozoneocean
YES GWB jnr and Co used it as an excuse for two wars, but anyone with a brain knew he was gong after Iraq as soon as he was elected. It was only a matter of time.

I think that's the biggest hole in the conspiracy theories. You'd think if Bush wanted to fake an attack to create an excuse for invading Iraq then he'd at least make the terrorists Iraqis and not Saudi-Arabians.

I think the funniest part of these crazy conspiracy theoires is that they imply that Bush was actually clever.

I concur with ozone on this however, some take refuge in the conspiracy theories as a way to make sense of what happened.

It just could not have been that simple, there must have been some sort of master plan coming from the US gov't about all this. The USA has manipulated world opinion before to support its violent agenda so it is doing it again! Dick Chaney and the neo-cons are the new J. Edgar Hoover and MacCarthy. Islamic terrorism is the new Red Scare which is the new Francophobia and Illuminati scare going back to George Washington and John Adams.

We've been here before and people use "weird things" to make sense from what (at first glance) doesn't make sense. Remember that an irrational choice make perfect sense to the person making them and since they wholeheartedly believe it all the evidence in the world will not swerve them from their beliefs.

Someone
"The theory is never discarded, only the evidence

ozoneocean
What the F...?

Sorry, I don't care about crazy theories, that's not why I made this thread.
Whether or not your alternative version of accepted reality as we know it happened the way you think it did Kyupol, QQQ or whatever, the buildings fell and lots of people died and it was a world event that has continuing repercussions.

I couldn't help but notice to see my username, in all caps even, therein, but I'm sorry? Did I ever stated that I believed in some kind of theory, as far as I recall I explicitly stated number of times I don't believe any theory on 9/11 and simply find the official story having huge holes?

You weren't just assuming that because I criticize one side I'm automaticalloy allied to there enemies would you? If I'm not with you I'm against you?

George Bush runs nothing.

Obama runs nothing.

The real power is in the hands of the UNELECTED.

You know... people like Brezinski, Kissinger, Rockefeller, Rothschild, Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, intelligence agencies like CIA, MI5, MI6, Mossad, ISI, etc... and various big corporations and banks like AIG, Wal Mart, Time Warner, etc.

In a nutshell, this is how the world is run:

qqq
You weren't just assuming that because I criticize one side I'm automaticalloy allied to there enemies would you? If I'm not with you I'm against you?

I'm assuming no "sides", either for myself or anyone else.
Capitals or no capitals, it's how I wrote the name at the time. People often refer to me in their own ways: Ozone, Oz, Ocean, Oceanozone, OzoneOcean etc, I don't mind any.

I think Bravo has the right of it there:

bravo1102
We've been here before and people use "weird things" to make sense from what (at first glance) doesn't make sense.

It's interesting when you think about it that way... Just another coping method for disaster. I remember reading an article of a group of friends in New York who'd seen the event first hand. The way they dealt with it after was getting together for group sex sessions.

kyupol
George Bush runs nothing.

Obama runs nothing.

The real power is in the hands of the UNELECTED.

You know... people like Brezinski, Kissinger, Rockefeller, Rothschild, Bilderberg, Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateral Commission, intelligence agencies like CIA, MI5, MI6, Mossad, ISI, etc... and various big corporations and banks like AIG, Wal Mart, Time Warner, etc.

In a nutshell, this is how the world is run:

The illuminati?

ozoneocean

qqq
You weren't just assuming that because I criticize one side I'm automaticalloy allied to there enemies would you? If I'm not with you I'm against you?

I'm assuming no "sides", either for myself or anyone else.
Capitals or no capitals, it's how I wrote the name at the time. People often refer to me in their own ways: Ozone, Oz, Ocean, Oceanozone, OzoneOcean etc, I don't mind any.

I think Bravo has the right of it there:

bravo1102
We've been here before and people use "weird things" to make sense from what (at first glance) doesn't make sense.

It's interesting when you think about it that way... Just another coping method for disaster. I remember reading an article of a group of friends in New York who'd seen the event first hand. The way they dealt with it after was getting together for group sex sessions.

Conclusions are overrated, I praefer to just point out what's wrong with any hypothesis to any situation, as most often they are all wrong, that is why science advances.

qqq
Conclusions are overrated, I praefer to just point out what's wrong with any hypothesis to any situation, as most often they are all wrong, that is why science advances

I made no conclusion and I don't think scientific method applies in any way to the progress of a discussion.
This is why computers don't make good conversationalists ;)

Kyupol, you're free to believe what you want, but your Illuminati theories don't belong in this thread. As Ozone said, this is about our reactions to the event and the impact it had on us, and littering the thread with conspiracy theories is both irreverent and off-topic.

As an illuminati in good standing, i'm a little peeved with you Kyupol. We haven't been in charge since Disney bought us out and you know that!

seriously, would we have let carlos mencia have a career in entertainment? i think not!

ozoneocean

qqq
Conclusions are overrated, I praefer to just point out what's wrong with any hypothesis to any situation, as most often they are all wrong, that is why science advances

I made no conclusion and I don't think scientific method applies in any way to the progress of a discussion.
This is why computers don't make good conversationalists ;)

Discussion is a conversation now?

I was in 4th grade or something and my mom said "Hey guess what, some terrorists just flew planes into the World Trade Center." Then I thought a while and asked her what the World Trade Center was.

Sea_Cow
I was in 4th grade or something and my mom said "Hey guess what, some terrorists just flew planes into the World Trade Center." Then I thought a while and asked her what the World Trade Center was.

It is a piece of modern architecture in South Amsterdam:

Really nice building, integrated subway station too, nice square, lot's of space.

qqq
Discussion is a conversation now?

I didn't say that. Are you saying that you're a computer?

The morning of 9/11, I worked all night the night before. As the sun rose, I was ready to leave Staten Island and head home to Queens to go to bed.

I remember looking out a window at the Twin Towers as I was waiting for the elevator. I was thinking idly "Cool I can see them from here...! Hey I think I can see the Statue of Liberty too...?"

Then after I got home, I turned on the TV in time to see the 1st building on fire. At that point, I already suspected "terrorist attack" because I am more knowledgeable than the average insulated American. Yes, I saw the 2nd crash live. At that point there was no doubt in my mind it was terrorists. What's the big surprise? It's not as if the WTC didn't get bombed a few years before. My mom happened to escape both the bombing and the planes through good fortune.

What utterly surprised me was when the towers collapsed. Before that, I was just thinking "omg how much would it cost for the repairs?" My reaction to the collapse was... sort of like when Buster Douglas TKO'ed Mike Tyson... disbelief and shock.

What pissed me off? When I called in the next day to say I can't come to work. My supervisor had this disdainful tone as if I was being cowardly, unpatriotic, and unfaithful to the Hippocratic Oath. Newsflash, fuckwad, THE BRIDGES ARE LOCKED DOWN! I couldn't even drive out of my own district (yes I tried)! What do you want me to do, swim to work?

What affected me emotionally, the most? Passing the local firefighter houses in my neighborhoods, and realizing that they're empty and lifeless, and there are flower wreaths laid out in front. NYC lost a ton of firefighters that day, and it stayed that way for a long time. An intimate sign that the city was truly reeling. I mean, aside from the huge dust cloud that hung over Manhattan for a week, and the paralysis of roads and transportation.

ozoneocean

qqq
Discussion is a conversation now?

I didn't say that. Are you saying that you're a computer?

Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

qqq

ozoneocean

qqq
Discussion is a conversation now?

I didn't say that. Are you saying that you're a computer?

Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

i believe you are greatly misunderstanding what "computer" means. it's a machine for adding numbers. we've just made very complex program that it translated into the graphical user interface you associate with your computer's operation. the human mind is something entirely different.

Orin J Master

qqq

ozoneocean

qqq
Discussion is a conversation now?

I didn't say that. Are you saying that you're a computer?

Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

i believe you are greatly misunderstanding what "computer" means. it's a machine for adding numbers. we've just made very complex program that it translated into the graphical user interface you associate with your computer's operation. the human mind is something entirely different.

What is this 'mind' you speak of? Last time I checked, that was just a metaphysical spiritual thing that had no place in science and is ill-defined and not even proven to exist. Humans just claim they have a mind and self-awareness each for themselves but can not prove others have them, and cannot prove they themselves have them.

What is shown to exist is the central nervous system which is the computer that handles the automation, and autonomics of the human body, and that indeed is a computer, though a highly advanced computer that can rewrite its own software and even rewrite its own hardware to adapt.

I don't think you understand what a computer is, a computer is essentially a machine that carries out instructions to translates input to output, often by means of the laws of physics, like my notebook I type this on, and indeed on a far more advanced level the swarm intelligence of the neurons that compose it. There is currently no scientific indication that 'minds' would exist, it's Ockam's razor, the current model does not require minds to exist or humans to be 'self aware' or having some form of 'perception', assuming that they do answers no quaestions and only raises more thus for the time being there is no reason to assume humans are self-aware. Sure, they claim it all the time that they have things like 'feelings' or 'thoughts' but that can just be explained by that their central nervous system instructs them to say that to enhance their survival. After all, if a stone has written on it 'I am self-aware' does that make the stone so?

Interestingly, this anime film centres around the the philosophical quaestion that as a much as a machine can claim to be self aware to protect itself as programmed to find a way to praeserve itself, indeed the same can be said about humans: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-WUQg-_oow

That excerpt is quite an interesting debate on that.

qqq
Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

lol! It's not a good idea to be too literal because then we end up talking complete nonsense in the context of the actual discussion at hand.

@ Mlai- The guy ordered you to come into work? When you were in the same city? o_O
What a complete and utter dick!

ozoneocean

qqq
Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

lol! It's not a good idea to be too literal because then we end up talking complete nonsense in the context of the actual discussion at hand.

Just pointing out that there's no hard line, gradually it can become advanced enough to type this message, then advanced to simulate all aspects of a human central nervous system and operate a human if replacing that organ, and how are you then going to say it's not sentient if you cannot even prove your own sentience?

@ qqq:
I actually think what you're typing is fun to read. But it has zero place in this thread, okay? Make up your own thread about human consciousness etc, rather than hijacking this thread.

@ Mlai- The guy ordered you to come into work? When you were in the same city? o_O
What a complete and utter dick!

No he didn't order me anything, but I disliked his tone of voice.
It's not as if I didn't try to get to work. I literally couldn't get out of my own neighborhood on the roads. The traffic jams were like nothing I've ever seen before - and keep in mind I've lived with Manhattan rush hours for most of my life.

mlai

@ Mlai- The guy ordered you to come into work? When you were in the same city? o_O
What a complete and utter dick!

No he didn't order me anything, but I disliked his tone of voice.
It's not as if I didn't try to get to work. I literally couldn't get out of my own neighborhood on the roads. The traffic jams were like nothing I've ever seen before - and keep in mind I've lived with Manhattan rush hours for most of my life.

Something similar happened to me when half of New Jersey was flooded out in a hurricane in 2000. The state locked down three counties and my boss somehow expected me to drive to work directly through the affected areas. The state police and National Guard had other ideas.

There have been some excellent articles and a few books going over America's reactions to 9/11 considering qqq's viewpoints (Free Inquiry and Skeptical Inquirer stick out in my mind) The hysteria, horror and self-justification was human nature. It's how humans are wired and can easily be traced to individual and family group reactions to disaster and threats in far simpler enviornments. But the "awe/aww" scene in Mel Brooks's History of the World part one is as perceptive as any intellectual discussion in an anime and much more effective with its simplicity. ;)

qqq

ozoneocean

qqq
Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

lol! It's not a good idea to be too literal because then we end up talking complete nonsense in the context of the actual discussion at hand.

Just pointing out that there's no hard line, gradually it can become advanced enough to type this message, then advanced to simulate all aspects of a human central nervous system and operate a human if replacing that organ, and how are you then going to say it's not sentient if you cannot even prove your own sentience?

actually, there is. the brain of any organic creature in analog and computers are digital. at it's most base level any computer component is working in "1"s and "0"s while your brain is using "red"s and "kinda sorta, but not really". AI people really, Really hate when you ask them how close they are to making an analog-system based AI program by the way.

Orin J Master

qqq

ozoneocean

qqq
Aren't all humans? Central nervous system is pretty much a swarm automaton with extensive capabilities to adjust and even rewire its own hardware.

lol! It's not a good idea to be too literal because then we end up talking complete nonsense in the context of the actual discussion at hand.

Just pointing out that there's no hard line, gradually it can become advanced enough to type this message, then advanced to simulate all aspects of a human central nervous system and operate a human if replacing that organ, and how are you then going to say it's not sentient if you cannot even prove your own sentience?

actually, there is. the brain of any organic creature in analog and computers are digital. at it's most base level any computer component is working in "1"s and "0"s while your brain is using "red"s and "kinda sorta, but not really". AI people really, Really hate when you ask them how close they are to making an analog-system based AI program by the way.

Nope, a neuron fires or it doesn't. The only tangible difference at this point is that computer components fire in descreet time, they are synchronous, and a neuron fires in continous time and the different neurons are asynchronous.

But that's all to change in the future of computing. That field-of-grey system is simply all those neurons put together, but individual neurons are still binary, just as computer parts, there are simply a lot more neurons.

Also, Ozone, could you split this debate off and call it 'Man's right to claim sentience'?

qqq
Also, Ozone, could you split this debate off and call it 'Man's right to claim sentience'?

Wouldn't it be far more simple to just create a new thread, that's called that?

Product Placement

qqq
Also, Ozone, could you split this debate off and call it 'Man's right to claim sentience'?

Wouldn't it be far more simple to just create a new thread, that's called that?

And lose all the old post?

Besides, it's removes them from this topic too.

A better idea would be that we stop derailing this thread. So far as I know we're unable to split threads.

Maybe I should just lock this. Continued deviation from the topic will result in this, I guess.