My lord, I go to work, come back, and there's all this xD. That's good though, there's more debating than the last year's debate already! :O

DAJB
- Criteria. Instead of concentrating on creating/subdividing categories, more attention should perhaps be paid to definitions, so people have a better understanding of what they're supposed to be voting for in each category. I'd suggest each category on the voting form could be accompanied by a brief one line summary of the criteria that are meant to be taken into account. For those actively involved in putting the awards together, it's sometimes easy to forget that very few of the voters will have read these forum discussions. (Hard to believe, I know!)

This is soooo important. I agree.

DAJB
Lettering. I disagree with usedbooks (which is very unusual in itself - we tend to think alike on most things!) When lettering is done well, I think it usually goes unnoticed. It's only when it's done badly that it gets attention! Anyway, that aside, this was only introduced last year because someone suggested it in the forum discussions (a perfect example of why suggestions for new categories should be treated with caution!) If there were very few nominees last year, this is exactly the kind of category that should be dropped in order to streamline things.

I agree and disagree. I think the lettering category should be dropped, but I agree that it's important. But that's why we should include it under "Best Comic Layout" and say on the ballot that that category includes lettering.

usedbooks
"Best Couple/Duo" It's a good category, and I'll fight ya for it! Wanna throw down? Come on! Readers like character chemistry. Period. Character awards are inherently hard to judge regardless. They are not so unlike user awards really. But the other categories are judge-able. I think this one is even more so. A lot of things can go into judging a relationship,the chemistry a pair have with each other and the entertainment value of the pairing (whether one of emotional affect or of comedy). You can punish my suggestion by making me a judge for it and I can see how hard it is. XD

I agree to keep it too! Out of all the "new" categories, I like this one the most! :D

usedbooks
This is mixing terminology again, but what about Best Protagonist and Best Villain? It's pretty much the same as "lead character and villain" but it is a little different, imo, and might work in practice (better than what we had before and what was suggested already?).

I don't know how I feel about that, mainly because "Protagonist" is one of those terms that should really only appear when it's opposite (obviously "antagonist" ) does. It's just weird if "Protagonist" is there by itself. :/

And as for the user awards, I don't mind whether they're present or not. I don't think they're necessary, but people really enjoy them.

JazyIH
This is going to be good.

I agree! :D

Someone
Criteria. Instead of concentrating on creating/subdividing categories, more attention should perhaps be paid to definitions, so people have a better understanding of what they're supposed to be voting for in each category.

I think you completely misunderstand the intent of organization into relatedness.

The ballots, arranged alphabetically, look overwhelming, and I personally (and I imagine other voters) had a heck of a time finding the categories I wanted to vote for. Pure flat alphabetical order sucks. It isn't logical to vote for "best overall story" in the middle of a bunch of genre-specific categories. I actually had to use my browser's "find" function last year. -_- I'd rather fill out a ballot from top to bottom in a logical order of related categories. It helps organize thoughts. -- That is the ONLY purpose for it. Period.

I don't think it bears any more thought (or "concentration" ;) ) or purpose beyond that and shouldn't have any affect on the categories themselves. It's nothing more than an aesthetic thing for the ballot.

That said, yes, there should be small descriptions on the ballot itself. That serves a completely different function (and an equally important one). I know I had to go hunting the forums for definitions last year too. People shouldn't have to do that.

Someone
I don't know how I feel about that, mainly because "Protagonist" is one of those terms that should really only appear when it's opposite (obviously "antagonist" ) does. It's just weird if "Protagonist" is there by itself. :/

That's true of villain/hero too. "Lead character" is not descriptive enough for a webcomic award. It is for an ACTING award, but we need to have defined roles and some criteria on which to base judging. Maybe we should just have hero and villain (the easiest to define roles) and comics without these just have to deal with it.

We could stick to protagonist and antagonist (with definitions shown) and put up with the same confusion and exceptions from last year. *Shrugs* There is no way to avoid it for these categories.

usedbooks
"Lead character" is not descriptive enough for a webcomic award. It is for an ACTING award, but we need to have defined roles and some criteria on which to base judging. Maybe we should just have hero and villain (the easiest to define roles) and comics without these just have to deal with it.

We could stick to protagonist and antagonist (with definitions shown) and put up with the same confusion and exceptions from last year. *Shrugs* There is no way to avoid it for these categories.

Let me ask this... what are we giving these awards for? Best Main Character (Protagonist, Hero, Lead, take your pick), Best Opposing Character (Villain, Antagonist, etc.) Best Secondary Character (Supporting - New category), and Best Twosome (Couple, Duo, whatever - Also New, though long lobbied for) Right? We're just trying to find the right terms. Main character and Main Antagonist or Main Villain are the terms I see most often over on the Script Frenzy/NaNoWriMo boards, so they don't have to be a clear pair, just so long as the terms are easily understood.

I'd like to keep Secondary/Supporting character if we can. More than a few comics I've read have characters who are not the main character, but worthy of notice. I wouldn't mind a "Best Scene Stealer" for those one-off characters who end up being popular, but I'm not sure if there's really enough call for it.

DaWaterRat
Let me ask this... what are we giving these awards for? Best Main Character (Protagonist, Hero, Lead, take your pick), Best Opposing Character (Villain, Antagonist, etc.) Best Secondary Character (Supporting - New category), and Best Twosome (Couple, Duo, whatever - Also New, though long lobbied for) Right? We're just trying to find the right terms. Main character and Main Antagonist or Main Villain are the terms I see most often over on the Script Frenzy/NaNoWriMo boards, so they don't have to be a clear pair, just so long as the terms are easily understood.

I like a category title of "Best Main character", and then the flip side would be "Best Foil character". Does it really matter if the main character is a hero or villain? We're just asking people who they think best carries the show.

And if the chemistry is so awesome between Main and Foil, then there's the option to name both in the Couple/Duo category

I can't think of any good names right now, but I don't like the idea of having just "Best Hero" and "Best Villain", it just doesn't seem very fair because there a lot of comics without "villains" and blatant "heros" :/

ayesinback
I like a category title of "Best Main character", and then the flip side would be "Best Foil character". Does it really matter if the main character is a hero or villain? We're just asking people who they think best carries the show.

I kind of like this...how about "Best Main Character/Hero" and "Best Foil Character/Villain"?

not to my thinking. What if your favorite main character is not a hero? like Charby.

ayesinback
not to my thinking. What if your favorite main character is not a hero? like Charby.

Urg! True. D:

I think we should just stick to "Best Lead Character" and "Best Supporting Character" no hero or villain. I was looking at the Academy Award categories xD and that's basically what they do (except split by gender, which we agreed we weren't going to do). I mean, obviously there are a lot of movies with villains and heros and neither, but they're also either lead or supporting characters.

Nicotine

ayesinback
not to my thinking. What if your favorite main character is not a hero? like Charby.

Urg! True. D:

I think we should just stick to "Best Lead Character" and "Best Supporting Character" no hero or villain. I was looking at the Academy Award categories xD and that's basically what they do (except split by gender, which we agreed we weren't going to do). I mean, obviously there are a lot of movies with villains and heros and neither, but they're also either lead or supporting characters.

And again, I say I don't like that because those awards are for ACTING and ACTORS not for how a character is written. We can compare acting ability in movies. But comparing an awesome hero to his nemesis is impossible for judging.

Maybe we better just keep Protagonist and Antagonist.

We had this EXACT same discussion at length last year, and that was the ultimate decision. Maybe the confusion for this case is not best addressed by renaming. Maybe having descriptions on the ballot and encouraging campaigning is what is called for.

Unless we do separate categories for typical heroes and villains and another for lead and supporting, I don't think we can work it out with keeping villains. I am of Nicotine's opinion to go with Lead and Supporting character, even though I like villains very much.

usedbooks
"Lead character" is not descriptive enough for a webcomic award. It is for an ACTING award

I don't see the problem here. Most if not all of our awards are mimicking awards for movies/television, etc. A "webcomic award" sounds to me like it would have categories like "pageviews" or "rating". Since actor is changed for character, I think lead(that we could change by main) and supporting(that could be changed for secondary) is a good alternative. And it doesn't lead to confusion.

usedbooks
We can compare acting ability in movies. But comparing an awesome hero to his nemesis is impossible for judging.

I don't see why these categories should have to be hero vs. nemesis. Not all comics have heros and villains.

I think just having "Best Lead Character" and "Best Supporting" would allow people to vote for any character they want (hero, villain, whatever). I don't see why a person wouldn't be judging the writing. Is this character a well written lead (whether they're a hero or whatever) or a good supporting figure for the story?

I don't like Protagonist and Antagonist either because not all characters are blatantly good or bad. I think if the names are generalized more (just Lead and Supporting) there'll be more wiggle room for the voters.

Demontales
I don't see the problem here. Most if not all of our awards are mimicking awards for movies/television, etc. A "webcomic award" sounds to me like it would have categories like "pageviews" or "rating". Since actor is changed for character, I think lead(that we could change by main) and supporting(that could be changed for secondary) is a good alternative. And it doesn't lead to confusion.

Ditto.

Nicotine

usedbooks
We can compare acting ability in movies. But comparing an awesome hero to his nemesis is impossible for judging.

I don't see why these categories should have to be hero vs. nemesis. Not all comics have heros and villains.

I think just having "Best Lead Character" and "Best Supporting" would allow people to vote for any character they want (hero, villain, whatever). I don't see why a person wouldn't be judging the writing. Is this character a well written lead (whether they're a hero or whatever) or a good supporting figure for the story?

I don't like Protagonist and Antagonist either because not all characters are blatantly good or bad. I think if the names are generalized more (just Lead and Supporting) there'll be more wiggle room for the voters.

Main/Foil or Protagonist/Antagonist... The two pairs are more or less synonymous. Hero/Villain is the pairing with the values assignment (and even then, Hero didn't always mean what we now interpret it as.) Lead/Supporting or Main/Secondary are just as valid, and Supporting/Secondary gives more wiggle room, since it isn't automatically the character in opposition to the Lead/Main

I'd hate not to have one for "opposing" characters. I love a bad guy. Not many are "the main character." Those that are are not the ones you are booing. They do hold a very distinct role, not simply "supporting characters." (Which I also like in addition to an antagonist.) I love the characters we boo and hiss.

Frankly I see no valid reason to change it from Protagonist and Antagonist. Last year, the trouble was when a villainous protagonist was an antagonist finalist. That doesn't, to me, suggest we need to get rid of the antagonist award. It just means people were interpreting it wrong. We don't need different categories. If anything, we need clearer definitions of the ones we have and/or names that don't confuse people.

So in my opinion, we should either leave it as Antagonist and Protagonist (with definitions:

~Best Protagonist - the main character, the leading man or woman
~Best Antagonist - opposes the main character; the foil or villain
~Best Supporting Character - noteworthy secondary character; good, bad, or other
~Best Couple/Duo - memorable pairings; lovers, partners, buddies, co-conspirators, or other

Or change it to

~Main Character - the protagonist, the leading man or woman
~Opposing Character - opposes the main character; the foil or villain
~Supporting Character - noteworthy secondary character; good, bad, or other
~Best Couple/Duo - memorable pairings; lovers, partners, buddies, co-conspirators, or other

~~~

Just a suggestion.

I'll concede to whatever the consensus is. It's not like the DD "bad guys" are holding me at gunpoint insisting they be represented.

Abt_Nihil your quote seems to support what I said.
If lettering is only noticed when it is done badly, how can we vote for a comic that does it best when it is something we are not meant to pay attention to?
I dont get what you were getting at with that.

Every time I am at work a thousand replies get made :P

I'm going to add descriptions to each category. Meaning we should keep "Best Antagonist/Protagonist"

I'll simply note that a main character is a protagonist. The character against the main focus is the antagonist. A villain can be a protagonist if he/she is the focus and vice versa.

Lettering is VERY important and is only being removed because it had such a small voter turn out.

I like Used Books idea to categorize the ballots. We can make them as alphabetical as possible within their own fields.

I'm going to try Best couple/duo and best supporting character this year. If it doesn't get much attention we can get rid of it.

The campaign will be hosted ON the awards. I'll separate the awards into chapters this year. I like getting to see the build up and history.

Site should be up Tuesday. At which point I will officially announce the Awards design contest and allow for submissions to campaigns. Even though we don't have a set date for the awards we can still have fun doing the other stuff beforehand.


EDIT: I hope that covers most of the important things covered. I'm ready to eat after working 13 hours in 100+ temps XD

usedbooks
...So, Antagonist and Protagonist (with definitions provided). Or Main Character and Opposing Character (to remove the "values" general readers might associate with the other terminology)...

I'm still very much in favor of the "Good Guy/Bad Guy" category and, whatever you end up going with, I'd strongly recommend not going with "Antagonist/Protagonist." Another problem you left out is that a lot of times there's a really good "good guy" or "bad guy" character who doesn't fit neatly in either role. A comic may have a really devious, truly memorable villain, but one whose role in serving as a foil to the plot's protagonist turns out to be minimal. Using really technical specific terms like "protagonist/antagonist" will, in this case, limit the eligible field of candidates in a detrimental way. It orphans a whole slew of characters who won't fit into any other category and could easily be fixed by using a slightly less stringent award title.

Another problem you left out is that a lot of times there's a really good "good guy" or "bad guy" character who doesn't fit neatly in either role.

We can note in the ballot that best supporting character could be good or evil for this case too.

I don't think the problem is that people don't understand what the category means; it's that the terms don't really line up with the way people experience comics. In the "X-Men" comics, some villains can on occasion help out the good guys in saving the day. But we still see them as bad guys, regardless of their function within the plot. We tend to measure them as people rather than functions, and I think people tend to vote the way they want the ballots to be labeled sometimes rather than the way they actually are labeled. No bad guys are going to be up for Best Protagonist this year. No heroic characters are going to be up for Best Antagonist. I think a better label could easily solve this, but whatever. Not going to press the issue.

The only issue we've had in previous awards is that Dr Argon is voted as Best Antagonist because ppl generally associate an antagonist as a villain. But since he's the focus character he's the protagonist.

Since the awards just look within the last year if a typical antagonist was helping the protagonists for most of the year in review then you are correct. That character would probably not get best antagonist. Maybe not even the votes to get nominated.

Later on in my comic at spots ppl may wonder who the focus characters are. They may be very divided on the protags/antags.

The main thing to determine is who the main antagonist and protagonist for that particular year is.

El Cid
No heroic characters are going to be up for Best Antagonist. I think a better label could easily solve this, but whatever. Not going to press the issue.

Yup.

Sorry if my last post seemed a bit curt; I'm jumping back and forth between Drunk Duck and two other things I'm doing, and streaming both seasons of "River Monsters" through Netflix, so it's hard to follow a debate at the moment. I still don't agree with the "protag/antag" thing, but it's not super important. The Awards will go fine either way.

Yeah. I can understand the hesitation to nominate an evil "protagonist." Maybe "main character" and "opposing character" are better labels. They have fewer "good guy/bad guy" connotations. A villain (or even an anti-hero) can easily be seen as a "main character" more than a "protagonist."

But the descriptions might be enough to remove confusion. Either way, I like the categorization last year because it encompasses more dynamic characters than just heroic goody-goodies and masters of evil. Plus it worked out fine aside from the Dr. Argon thing.

usedbooks
But the descriptions might be enough to remove confusion.

I would think so, too. As for VND, I have no doubt that RoyDuncan will be quick to point out to his readers that Dr Argon will qualify as a protagonist this year!

usedbooks
"Best Couple/Duo" It's a good category, and I'll fight ya for it! Wanna throw down?

Naah, you'd only beat me! Go ahead and give it a try if it means that much to you! ;-)

harkovast
Abt_Nihil your quote seems to support what I said.
If lettering is only noticed when it is done badly, how can we vote for a comic that does it best when it is something we are not meant to pay attention to?
I dont get what you were getting at with that.

I meant to say:
(1) "We" do pay attention (maybe you're not). I do recognize good lettering when I see it.
(2) Even if you don't notice it, there's a clear criterion for distinguishing good from bad lettering: not noticing it. :P It also points to the fact that "lettering" is an important skill, which justifies having it as a category (which might, as I said, still be trumped by pragmatic reasons though).

To be honest harkovasts view on lettering is... I won't say stupid or wrong but fairly typical of a broad audience. A lot of people don't notice it, much as they don't notice the effort some people put into making a page flow visually. I think it's important to recognise it and keep the award or mix it with layouts.

Genejoke
A lot of people don't notice it, much as they don't notice the effort some people put into making a page flow visually.

Agreed. It's like film editing. With a film, the majority of the audience only notices the contribution of the actors. A smaller number will recognise the importance of the contribution made by the script writer(s) and the director. But virtually no one in the general audience will be aware of just how significant a part the editing can play in the success of a movie. Like lettering, when it's done well, the editor's contribution is virtually invisible to almost everyone, even though those within the industry acknowledge that good or bad editing can make or break a film.

Still, there's no need for anyone to fall out over it here. The point's decided isn't it? Lettering will be included in layouts, and - assuming we are noting definitions on the voting form - the voting ballot can make it clear that lettering is one of the factors that should be taken into account when looking at that category.

I agree. Lettering is a small but very significant part of comicing. Some people to a brilliant job of it and deserve to be recognised for that.
Getting it really good is a pretty rare skill and those that do should be pointed out so the rest of us can use them as examples to follow!

In the reviews I have to do for the featured comics as part of the Quackcasts I really notice stuff like that more and more.

Just to update that I'm slightly being delayed. Haven't been home yesterday and looks like I may be late getting in today.

Would some nice member start making descriptions for the categories in the meantime? :)

I would but it would likely be as follows.


Best completed comic
^^ see above.



best colour artwork
figure it out genius

Would some nice member start making descriptions for the categories in the meantime? :)

Oooo! I'll do it! I'm taking a brief comicking break and dying for a task like this. (I love making concise descriptive things!) :). Provided that other members proofread the hell out of it when I'm done.

usedbooks

Would some nice member start making descriptions for the categories in the meantime? :)

Oooo! I'll do it! I'm taking a brief comicking break and dying for a task like this. (I love making concise descriptive things!) :). Provided that other members proofread the hell out of it when I'm done.

Be careful what you wish for!
;-)