Does it bother you that nobody is planing to produce games for gamers any more? Microsoft is using the Xbox to push thier online services (why do you think they included all that photo sharing crap?), Sony wants to make sure everyone is going to be using a blu-ray standard player by 2010 the PS3 is thier platform to push that. Finaly the Wii, which is specificaly aimed at non gamers.
Do you feel cheated, that you, the core market that support these machines from the start. The people who go out and buy consols on release are not the focus of anyones attention any more?

Yes, but I won't bitch about it. As long as the games are good.

.: Myxomatosis :.

I feel cheated that there arent any good mech simulators on PC. it's a genre that used to be highly compettetive and had scores of titles, now nobody wants to make a good mech sim, and when they do they make it for consoles only and make the online support absoloute bullshit (anyone say steel battalion?)

It's the same thing with Flight Simulators and REAL driving simulators.

.: Myxomatosis :.

Of those genres, real driving simulators are still around on the PC. Console driving games are getting more sim-like. Despite the flashy controls, Steel Btallion wasn't much of a mech simulation. What other game makes you take wide turns because your mech can't balance, but also lets you dash sideways without any balance issues? The only sim element was flipping all those switches before you could start the mech.

Unfortunately, the top flight and mech sims were mostly bought out by Microsoft. Mechwarrior seemed to set the standard on the PC and the company which brought out that series originally was bought out by Billy Gates. The franchise lives on in the more console friendly Mechassault, but i have ot admit it's a pale shadow of the previous games based on the franchise.

Some of the flight sim games still come out as budget titles. Sometimesyou can find sequels to games you thought long dead when browsing through the $5 games at Staples. Generally, though, the top titles in that genre are also either owned by Microsoft or lesser known titles (mostly based in WWII) for the PC.

Personally, I don't feel too cheated by the new generation of consoles. Despite all the negative press, I'm not seeing any major differences from the last generation. Sony was pushing DVD last generation, Xbox was pushing it's Live service, and Nintendo was trying its hardest to not use all the buttons on its controllers. There will still be games aimed at both hardcore and casual gamers and in all likelihood you'll find them on the same systems in similar quantities. I can't really speak for Microsoft, but I know both Sony and Nintendo are pushing hard to get developers moving on game production.

.: isukun :.

I don't know your feelings on Steel Battalion, but the last time I played it at your place, I thought it was pretty darned awesome.

There hasn't been a new one, though, which is sad.

Getting to the main point of the thread, though, few make turn-based strategy or LucasArts-style adventure games anymore, so I basically just play old games, Nipponichi games, and Railroad Tycoon.

.: mrpedant :.

Last generation had one consol aimed at real gamers, and that was the Dreamcast. Of course, that got neglected and died, so clearly what the gamers want is to be sold "Media Centres" rather than gaming consols.

I don't think the Dreamcast was fundamentally different from any of the other consoles out there at the time. Can you support your statement?

.: mrpedant :.

The Dreamcast died because of a poor marketing strategy, and Playstation 2 hype.

By the way, The Dreamcast was aimed more at causal gamers. Thus of course coming from the failure of the Sega Saturn.

.: Myxomatosis :.

Yes.

The Dreamcast was software oriantated. It was designed to make it easier for people to write games for. That's why it has a stronger amature development base than any of it competitors. Some of it's last generation games where on par with PS2 ones despite it's lower specs because it was much easier to write for.

I think that's why the GBA library was so great. Say what you will about the last generation of console games, the GBA to me was the system most worth your dime (especially after they finally added a light to the damn thing). Anyway, the GBA got more than its fair share of crap (usually licensed stuff from movies and TV shows) because it was so much easier to program for than the big systems, but it also got a lot of really fun, innovative games as well for the same reason.

Oh the GBA, fun was had by all.

However.

It also got megaman games, shitloads of them, have you tried one of the megaman battle network games? lame unessescary storylines, text noise that is like a thousand knives of flaming ice being driven into your spine by a jackhammer, hideous characters and they werent even fun to play.

Hell I blame megaman battle network 1-6 for the bad storylines in sprite comics. well that AND dragonball z.

I think amateur development is not the key we're looking for to prove a "true gamer" console.

Microsoft is letting regular people code for the Xbox 360 now. Has the Xbox 360 suddenly become a better gaming console? I don't think so. I think its architecture, its controllers, and its choice of major game licensors is much more determinative of how much gamers will like it than whether I can live my dream of creating a Babylon 5 Wars game for the Xbox.

.: mrpedant :.

It's not a case of "letting", thats another issue entirely. It's a case of the fact that the Dreamcast was way more developer friendly than the PS2 or the XBox. Remember all those problems with the PS2's Anti-aliasing when it was launched. The Gamecube was better than the PS2 and XBox, but it's not up there with the Dreamcast. The Basic programing included in the PS2 was just a ploy by Sony to try and get it classified as a "computer" so they could avoid tax.

The statement about the amature development scene was to back up my statement. It's not like I've tried to code anythign for the DC before, I think that makes more conclusive proof than "I read it on the internet". Also, amature developers come up with the more inovitative ideas than the industry does. You've just got to look at stuff like Gate 88 or FreeCiv (The structure far suprior to it's commercial counterpart) to see how Open Source can kick the monkey nuts off commercial games.

Yes, very. Ya see, I have always wanted a Wii. When I finally saw how small the Wii was, I realized that I wanted a bigger Wii! I want my Wii to be at least 12 inches tall! Instead we get a measly 6 inch Wii. What next? The 3 inch Wii? What shall I ever do if they stick me with a 3 inch Wii?

DAMNIT! THAT MAKES ME FEEL NEGLECTED!!!

And then what if you put your Wii down for a second and it falls over? Last I checked Nintendo has no intentions of starting a limp Wii program! And even worse, what if you sit it on a table, and it falls off? What am I going to do if my Wii falls off!

DAMNIT! LIMP WIIS MAKE ME FEEL NEGLECTED!!!

At least the Wii will let me play with it with motion. I cant wait to rub the long hard remote up and down as I wiggle it back and forth to play a game. It will be so fun to play with my Wii all day!

At least playing with my Wii will probably not make me feel neglected. At least it won't until my Wii gets old and stops working.

.: equinox :.

Genitalia

I'm going to disagree with you, and I'm not sure anymore whether it's because I used the Dreamcast to play Power Stone and Puyo Puyo and didn't feel it was any more a "real gamer" machine than any other box out there, or because your slavish devotion to open source makes me nuts.

Look, I got an undergraduate degree in Computer Science surrounded by advocates of Richard Stallman. I went to a law school known for its intellectual property law focus. I've heard all the arguments for open source, both from Stallman's quasi-Marxist "no one owns information" point of view and Lawrence Lessig's "copyright is used excessively" point of view.

I also tried to start up a computer game company. Basically, it's not profitable to do open source unless you are a graphical genius, because if your underlying mechanics are great and your graphics suck, someone else can, under the GPL, use the mechanics you spent time on and slap some prettier pictures on it, and sell it as their own.

That is, of course, separate from the fact that my partner in the company I tried to start, who now works in Japan making games for the DS, said that it would have taken us a significantly longer time using openGL and openAU instead of DirectX.

When you use as an example of a well-made open source game the game "FreeCiv," which is to replicate the adaptation Sid Meier made of a board game by Avalon Hill, it's not exactly supportive of any argument you might make. There's only a limited amount of creativity and difficulty in adapting an adaptation. Especially if you use sprites other people drew.

So, yeah, open source does some things really well, but it is not the best way to make video games if you want video games to be your day job.

So, basically, I don't buy the argument that the Dreamcast was a better machine because it made development easier, because that says nothing about the games people played on it. If my taste in games determined "real gamer machines," only machines that had large libraries of dating sims and turn-based strategy games would be for "real gamers."

But also, I think open source is a real red herring to this discussion, and you're wrong about it. Being a prickly pedant, though, I'll concede the whole open source line of discussion and focus solely on what makes a "real gamer" if you agree to spell "amateur" correctly. There's a lot of bad spelling I can tolerate, but "amature" just grates on my eyeballs, especially after I spelled it correctly in a previous post.

.: mrpedant :.

I don't know about open source or anything like that, but I think that a system that's easier to program for has an edge over one that's hard to program for, simply because developers will end up wanting to make games for that one more than the other. Reportedly that's why a few Sony-loyal companies (like Tecmo) went over to the XBox (since the Xbox was built more like a computer, it was easier to work with).

In the past 3 years I've not seen one single commercial game (Outside, Pikmin perhaps) that has equaled the origionality I've seen in less polished open source titles. Sure, there have been ones that have been easier to just switch my brain off and play, lots of them; but thats like the differance between eating something healthy because it's good for you and eating junk food because you've got into the habit of it.

When the industry is trying to match some of the crazy ideas coming from the open source and independant market rather than making GTA4, Jak 3, Gran Turismo 4, Ratchet and Clank 4, Tomb Raider...god I've totaly lost TRACK of that dead horse. I'll quit shipping open source as the future of intresting video games.



Yes, open source sucks because you can't make money out of it. Gosh, if that had anything to do with the quality of the games being made these days, I might acctualy concede it as a valid point. No, I don't have flashy a flashy degree of any kind. I used to write some amaturish video games in my spare time; I take a very very deep intrest in the "real" part of the industry because thats what I want to do for a living. I only stopped wanting to design games for the PS2 when I realised I was going to be expected to turn out the same stuff with differant packaging for years on end.



I'm...not going to discuss DirectX. Let's just say for the record I don't like it but couldn't argue a significant case against it.



No, again you've missed the point. I'm citing open source as something that is spawning more intresting solutions to problems than the industry is, perhaps because they aren't bogged down in making graphics look uber leet. For example, the FreeCiv engine allows players to move simultaniously whilst playing a game over a network, thus cutting the rediculous time for an online game. It wasn't some kludge put over an excisting engine, it was an integral part of the design.



I'm not talking about making money, I'm talking about making games better. It's a sad story when people who aren't getting paid are entertaining me more than an sector that grosses more every year than Hollywood.



Because your thinking like a player, not a designer. The most intresting games for the DC where probably never made, because it died before the last generation ever arrived. Sonic Adventure 2 and Shenmue started to show off how much a good coder can boost the power of a consol.



I have dyslexia, I'm posting from Net Cafe's around canada because I don't have the internet at home. As far as I'm concerned I have better things to do with my time than spellcheck just so I can stop you using my bad spelling as a totaly irrelvant point to try and invalidate my arguement.

And yes, Open source is a seperate arguement. As I mentioned in my previous post, I was using it as evidence to back up my point that the DC was easy to program for. If it was hard, it wouldn't have such a big indepenedant development sector.

Generally the difficulty of development on different systems is a negligable difference. PS2 had more developers than its competition and PS3 looks to have more than the newer systems even though both systems are supposed to be the more difficult systems to develop games for.

Tecmo is also kind of a bad example. Tecmo first looks at where the market is and then looks at the systems capabilities. In the US, the Xbox sold fairly well and seemed like a perfectly viable platform for some of their more Western-friendly games (Ninja Gaiden and Dead or Alive). If you look at their development history, though, you'll notice that they have actually made more games for the PS2 since "switching" to the Xbox. Monster Rancher is still Playstation exclusive. Deception never made it's way to the Xbox. Fatal Frame is still created for the PS2 and then later ported. And there are several games which they make exclusively for the Japanese market and only on PS2.

.: isukun :.

damn you big corperate sponsers why can't you comprimise and share and make games for the gamer. and I want a bigger wii too. XD

.: Link_Hylia :.