Japanification/Japanization

Okay, I have seen this topic pop up in a lot of the forum posts lately, and some people are getting a little heated. So I am putting it up for debate.


Topics to Discuss:
How do you feel about Japanification/Japanization?
Do you believe it a good or bad thing?
Can it even be called Manga since it is not authentically from Japan?
Are the use of Japanese names, titles, and sound effects effective in webcomics?
What are the positive or negative aspects of this comic phenomenon?
Anything else that you have to say about the topic.

Play nice people...I don't want this shut down.




My feelings on the topic.
How do you feel about Japanification/Japanization? Do you believe it a good or bad thing?

So many people have been complaining about manga, webmanga, manga-fusion and whatever other term that you would like to use for the manga-like comics that are popping up all over the web. Though I personally think that the emulation of actual authentic manga by webcomic artists can be a little over the top...I also find it funny that some of the biggest complainers have such obvious elements of manga within their webcomics.

I believe that within reason, japanification can be a positive thing. (Two of my reasons...I know I have more, but these are my current staples-o-positiveness)

1. It shook up the webcomic community and even though not all are manga...I think that there are a significant amount of new graphic novels out there. Web-GN's (graphic novels) in the past couple of years have become more plentiful. It gave people yet another option and I've seen some really nice elements of manga in some people's work.

2. I think that it has brought more women into the webcomic community. And there is nothing wrong with that. It just means that there are more readers out there that are looking at other's hard work. It bridged a gap that had been left unfilled for awhile (yay GIGCAST with lea hernandez...it was like a lightbulb above my head). I'm one of those people. I liked comics as a kid, but it wasn't until I started reading manga and looking for webmanga that I got into webcomics...and I didn't do webmanga first, I did strips. JATM, Sockpuppetbob...those aren't manga, but I attribute my presence now to manga and japanification.




Can it even be called Manga since it is not authentically from Japan? Are the use of Japanese names, titles, and sound effects effective in webcomics?

I feel that people should be able to call their comic whatever they like. It will appeal to the crowd that they want to draw in. If I had my way I'd never have to see PENIS as a title again(no offense Marine, I like your work, just not your title...you're just an easy example and a forum whore so I know you'll read this :wink: ). But you don't see me berating Marine, I know that its titled that way to get people's attention. I think that those that like webmanga will be immediately drawn to those Japanese titles and know that it is what they are looking for. And most otaku own a japan dictionary and will look up sound effects, so it may be annoying to you, but its educational to other people.

As for the question about it being called manga...I think that it can. Manga stopped being a solely japanese authentic product when Japan started selling it to us. They liscensed it to non-Japanese speaking audiences, they didn't change its name...therefore, I believe it just became another genre of comics. Its like arguing about what's a true strip comic...maybe those only exist in the newspapers. I don't believe that they only exist in papers, but it could be someone's arguement. I do like the idea of calling it manga-fusion or manga OEL (Original English Language) to distinguish it, but if someone wants to call their work manga, let them. Its a product of the Japanese whoring their comics on us, so they can live with us stealing that name. And does anyone have a better name for these japanized comics? I don't know what else to call them.




OKAY....DISCUSS!

I always play nice. It's just that I am too nice sometimes and it pisses people off.



I admit, I love manga. I also admit, my art direction is clearly an offshoot of it. But you don't see Rose running around screaming "OMG! KAWAII! AL-SAN, YOU ARE BAKA!". The art direction has no bearing on someone's ability to enjoy a comic. Even sightgags like sweatdrops and shit like that do not effect the ability to enjoy a comic.



How the hell did it shake up the webcomic community? Web-GN are the same damn thing as a webcomic! And the options were there before manga became popular. All manga is is comics from japan!

You want to see something that really shook up the webcomics community, look at the war with sprite comics.



Women were brought in because of the content. They did not start reading it because it was written right-to-left. Using the fact that you lack a dick to justify people writing thier comics right-to-left is disturbing as hell!

Yeah, women like different things than men. But they read manga because american comics have yet to market to them. Once marvel and the other us comic companies realize they could make even more money, you will see a mass output of comics aimed towards women. It is only a matter of time.



No, it is not manga if it is not from japan! Manga translates to comics. And therefore it accomplishes nothing to call your webcomic a webmanga.



Japanese titles tell absolutely nothing to people who don't know japanese! What kind of non-japanese speaking person would understand the title 'Akuma wa anata no okasan ga dai suki desu yo'? While it may make sense to me and you, most people would not know that says "The devil loves your mother!".

And don't use the fact that otaku all have japanese to english dictionaries to justify japanese sound effects! What about everyone else?! Not everyone has the time or patience to learn japanese. So by writing your sound effects in english, you make things more accesible. In no way does this dumb your comic down.

And PENIS is pretty much the best comic ever. Anyone who denies Marine's genius is a fool.



All manga is is comics that are made in japan! Why can't people realize that? It's the same fucking thing as marvel comics damnit! The only difference is that they read thier pages right-to-left instead of left-to-right. Sure, the art style is unique to them, but it is in no way another genre of comics!



Noone is arguing over what a true comic strip is. We all know what those are. But calling american manga something like manga OEL or manga-fusion serves no purpose. All it is is a comic drawn in the same style as manga.



No, it is a product of otaku trying to be japanese. Manga = COMICS! Call them Western manga if you HAVE to call them something.

The problem here is not an attack on manga. It's when people do stupid shit like writing thier pages backwards and using japanese sound effects. The english language was developed to be read left to right, so making your pages backwards makes them hard to read. We tolerate this on normal manga because that is how the japanese read things. It serves no purpose in an english comic.

And to top off my rant, I will say that most of us actually love manga and anime. We just don't like backwards pages and jap sound effects in english comics.

.: equinox :.

I have to go to work, so I don't have time to comment on all of the things you said (I apologize...I want to, but no time) so I'll comment on this, because it is something that I feel strongly about.

Yes, manga translates to the word comics, but the style that comes from Japan is distinct and recognizable. It is true that manga is a comic. It is also true that a sprite comic is a comic...but I like having that distinction. I can't just call all sprite comics JUST comics. There is a specific genre there and I want to be able to label it. If we don't label the genre from Japan "manga", what are we going to call it? There are stupid little labels for all the genres of comics...we need to be able to specify what we are talking about at least...therefore, its MANGA.

There is one small difference. Sprite comics are infamous for being shitty and poorly made. We need to differentiate them because the majority suck ass.

.: equinox :.

Wow, that's a really good point. But going with your point...you are hating on the manga-wannabe's so wouldn't we wanna do the same thing in order to distinguish them? HUH? :-D

(on a side note...Damn you equinox for entagling me in interesting debate...I haven't forced my butt out of my computer chair to go to work yet)

No, we shouldn't. Because as annoying as manga-wannabes are, they are still much better than sprite comics. And I don't really hate people for wanting to produce manga. I just hate it when they do stupid shit that makes it hard to read and enjoy.



You might want to hurry up then. A debate on DD is not worth being late to work for.

.: equinox :.

Quick question before I leave...why isn't this debate?? That's why I put it in the debate thread...so we could argue. I didn't think we could argue in the other threads, because I would have just kept arguing in the other thread.
Now I feel silly because there are two threads of the same thing.

(and don't worry, I'm not late equinox...I just won't eat before I leave )

Two reasons: Firstly the debate forum is generally for non-comic related discussion, as we HAVE a comic forum (yes I know, the sprite comic thing. but I locked that so nyeer). Secondly, we don't need threads in separate forums discussing the same thing. Someone can merge the threads if they want. I no longer am in a designated power area.

Actually, "manga" has a broader definition in Japanese than simply comics. It translates more closely to "cartoon" than comics and can at times also be used to refer to animation as well as Japanese comics and older forms of sequential art.

I would also like to point out that even among just comics made in Japan, manga does not denote any particular style. While mainstream manga tend to conform to genre standards, underground artists and artists who aim for older age groups tend to stray from what we consider to be "manga style." Yet to both the Japanese and the Americans, their work is still considered manga. You will also find that there is little which ties the genres of manga together stylistically.

.: isukun :.

Dosen't manga litterally translate to: Random Drawings?

that was what I was lead to believe.

I think like most words in the japanease language, attempts to translate it have clouded the truth because there IS no western equivilant.

I think these rifts forming in the webcomic community are becoming steadily more rediculous. Everyone is becoming obsessed with putting comics into catagorys, it has to be Manga, Sprite, American style. What's wrong with borrowing the elements you need from a genre and leaving the ones you don't?

After looking up the history of the word Manga the most reasonable translation is indeed "random drawings" but litterally it just refers to comics.



Because that isnt what we are talking about, the complaints we have are when people take elements they don't need and that don't add depth or quality and use them in place of the logical choice, IE english read right to left, japanese SFX, use of honourifics for no reason and replacing words seemingly at random with japanese despite there being direct and accurate translations.

When people use a manga art style it's fine, when their stroy draws from manga influences then fine, but when people do the above things it is just stupid, and the fact loads of people do it means it isnt even origional, it just removes any sense of individuality or origonality that the comic may have previously had.

My biggest problem with webmanga isn’t that it’s done by non-Japanese artists or that it’s labeled wrong. My big problem is an overwhelming lack of originality in most that I’ve personally come across. It’s not unusual for artists of any genre to borrow elements from artists that have influenced them, but there are few manga artist’s styles that will stand out to the casual reader. If there is no spark that stands out about there artwork, I know I am less apt to read it.

The same is true of the writing styles. There are many manga cliché’s that I find start to grate. Every character having crazy names that I’ll never be able to remember from panel to panel are a start. If your character is American, it’s ok to name them Bob instead of Hatashi-San. (example pulled out of my… well you know)

Plot lines and conversational styles are also key.
If your story is about high school student X who has other students A-H in love with them (usually for no apparent reason), then you might want to think about throwing in some other elements to keep it interesting.
Dialogue is another big one. Your characters need to sound believable even if they are cat people in space fighting vampires. Characters that unnecessarily use a lot of manga speak are just going to confuse any reader who isn’t a hard core manga fan to begin with. I know personally I also find it distracting from a comic. You really don’t want to throw in things that pull people out of your story.

I will also have to agree with the left to right vs. right to left thing. People are willing to put up with it being backwards if the original was in another language and it’s been translated, but they are much less patient when you, by choice, made it difficult to read.

Well that’s my 2 cents on the issue.

My biggest problem with webmanga isn’t that it’s done by non-Japanese artists or that it’s labeled wrong. My big problem is an overwhelming lack of originality in most that I’ve personally come across. It’s not unusual for artists of any genre to borrow elements from artists that have influenced them, but there are few manga artist’s styles that will stand out to the casual reader. If there is no spark that stands out about there artwork, I know I am less apt to read it.

The same is true of the writing styles. There are many manga cliché’s that I find start to grate. Every character having crazy names that I’ll never be able to remember from panel to panel are a start. If your character is American, it’s ok to name them Bob instead of Hatashi-San. (example pulled out of my… well you know)

Plot lines and conversational styles are also key.
If your story is about high school student X who has other students A-H in love with them (usually for no apparent reason), then you might want to think about throwing in some other elements to keep it interesting.
Dialogue is another big one. Your characters need to sound believable even if they are cat people in space fighting vampires. Characters that unnecessarily use a lot of manga speak are just going to confuse any reader who isn’t a hard core manga fan to begin with. I know personally I also find it distracting from a comic. You really don’t want to throw in things that pull people out of your story.

I will also have to agree with the left to right vs. right to left thing. People are willing to put up with it being backwards if the original was in another language and it’s been translated, but they are much less patient when you, by choice, made it difficult to read.

Well that’s my 2 cents on the issue.

I'm with Spambot. Bad writing is bad writing; some people just give it an ethnic twist.

.: mrpedant :.

This isn't about bad writing. This is about people writing thier comics backwards and using japanese sound effects and forcing japanese words down our throats.

.: equinox :.

So what exactly is so wrong about people making comics that emulate people that they enjoy reading (aka Japanese authors). Is it really hurting you, are they forcing you to read it? How different is that from a person emulating a Stan Lee comic other than it isn't particularly for you. Its like the sprite debate (which is now dead...mourn the loss of that thread) if you don't like it, then don't read it. Some of the people that make webmanga and try to make it more authentic do a damn good job with it. It looks pretty nice. If they want to write it right to left, let them, they are only hurting their chance to draw a bigger audience. I also think that most sound effects in general are stupid...japanese or otherwise.



And in the same breath I'm going to argue with myself because I actually think its stupid that there are still japanified-genre (my new name for it, because no one else came up with a different label than MANGA) out there that write right to left. But they have that right. Just like the sprite comics have a right to be here too.


I agree with Titch, this need to weed out and categorize comics is getting annoying. And that WAS on topic because I left it open ended and I think it fits under negative aspects of this comic phenomenon. People see japanified-genre comics and automatically categorize and dismiss them. And unlike sprites, there is a lot of good work that is being dismissed because its japan-generic. A lot of decent stories and good artwork.


Also, tokyopop and some of the other japan comic licensing companies are just now starting to accept japanified-genre comics in a western format (left to right). I think that it was this drive to imitate more authentically by the larger companies that spurred the little artist to follow. I don't think that it solely lies on every overly-addicted otaku fanboy and fangirl's heads. I think that money and consumerism had a bit to do with it also.



Fun unrelated fact...I drove past my local Burger King on my way home and it was on fire. Just thought you'd like to know.

I was going to counter all of your points, but the fact of the matter is that I already stated my point of view multiple times. Were I to do it much more, the dead horse would fall apart.



I used to work at a Burger King. Trust me, they catch fire ALL the time. It is not an unusual occurance.

.: equinox :.

oh, darn...I've wanted to see a dead horse fall apart, and you are depriving me of the pleasure. Thanks for all the opinions equinox (and everyone else)... Its fun when there is someone to argue with (I derive way too much pleasure from debate).

Doesn't anyone else see some of the good that it brings? Am I all alone? Then again, I also would fight for sprites. I'm a sad human being (not emotionally, just existance wise).

thatreevesgirl


Read all the posts in this topic and in the poll topic, it has been explained REPEATEDLY what is wrong with it. all your points have already been talked about, and your opinion is the minority.

The dead horse thing was was a joke mimarin, and I know that I'm the minority. Someone has to stick up for this side, because these comics wouldn't exist if someone didn't like the way they were being done.

I have read all of the posts and appreciated every comment and viewpoint...in fact I agreed with some of them. I honestly think that your comment was very rude. That is why I wanted this in the debate thread...people don't deal well with debate outside of that thread.


With that in mind, I will end the discussion. I thought it was fun to talk about it, but apparently it wasn't, it was only annoying some of you.

I can find a picture of a dead horse if it would make you happy.

.: equinox :.

naw, but thanks anyway equinox :D

You seem to be using "japanified" in a different sense than everyone else. It isn't the fact that artists are heavily influenced by manga. It's more the problem that japanese pop-culture is being fetishized to an extent by some people who take on affectations (ie: artificial behavior) like dropping japanese expressions, calling themselves manga-ka, and making comics right to left for no good reason other than these things are japanese and therefore somehow "kewl." In a way it is more about what is being done to japanese culture than what japanese culture is doing to comics. To me it is comparable to Star Wars geeks. Ony we have Japan geeks. It is the quickest way to get me to not read a comic but otherwise it doesn't bother me. As you said, if they are having fun then who am I to stop it. Although perhaps someone who is actually japanese might be offended by an outsider pretending to be what they are not.

And by fetishized I don't mean to suggest some sexual motive. It is like Americans who run around saying "shite" and "bloody hell" or a native japanese person wearing Cowboy boots and talking like they are from Texas. Within the context of a particular story it could work but is otherwise silly.

.: JKline :.

Well, I'm a writer, and so for me, a lot of what more artistic people would consider their own bailiwick, like layout and stylistic choices, I also consider something I have influence on. For example, Neal Gaiman only writes the scripts for his comics, but he has a lot of influence on how the panels appear on the page, what sort of media the artist uses, etc.

Obviously, the dialogue is the purview of the writer, so making it hard to read by inserting foreign loan-words willy-nilly is a writing fault. But for panel layout, drawing big eyes, etc., these are like writing in that they are not faults of a person who is a bad artist technically, but a bad conveyor of ideas.

When things like layout and style work, they are story-enhancing choices by the author or authors of the comic. The best in comics lay out pages so that you read at a certain pace and get a feel for the speed of the action, even in static imagery.

As for style, haven't you read those Calvin & Hobbes comics where Calvin plays "house" or "doctor" with Suzie, and Bill Watterson suddenly switches to drawing like he's doing Apartment 3G? The choice to draw in a certain style can help convey the message you're putting in your writing, if you put thought into it.

And really, the problem with the slavishly Japanese comics is that their authors don't think. This is not unique to any type of comics. I've seen a lot of people drawing American-style superhero comics who should probably give it a rest and come up with some new ideas because they're just plain boring.

.: mrpedant :.

I draw in a definately manga-influenced style, but I wouldn't call it Manga. Manga is a very specific art form, and I've always felt true manga comes from Japan. There are, however, many VERY good artists in America that can do a manga correctly. There are many, many, MANY more that do NOT.

I, too, am sick of the constant "Onni-chan!" and "Toki-sama" and "Hat-san!" and "Baka!" and "Kawaii!" being thrown into comics. Unless the characters are Japanese, and speak Japanese, they don't need to ever use those words. I would never use them myself, for that very reason.

I try to make my actual comic as non-manga as I can, despite the style of the characters. That's just what I like to draw- the style appeals to me, and I like anime. I think it's fine for people to draw in an anime/manga style, but all that other nonsense I could do without.

Now, about the use of the word "manga" to describe Western comics...

We use the term "tortilla" because it's easier than saying "flat bread" (plus "flat bread can refer to a few different types of bread). The word "tortilla" does not definitively describe the bread in question: it doesn't tell us whether it's made of corn, flower; how it's prepared, whether or not it has spices mixed in. But we call it a tortilla, even though we have English words that mean the same thing.

In that same vein, we have the sombrero. In Spanish, the term "sombrero" just means "hat", and the type of hat we refer to as a sombrero is called a "Sombrero Mexicano" South of the border. Although we have equivalent words, and really aren't using the term correctly, we continue to use the term "sombrero" to only refer to a specific style of hat.


Oh, and Marvel has attempted to market to women in recent years (usually on a small scale) but never with any real success. Archie Comics have been marketing to women for years, and their highest selling properties are the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise (based on a Japanese character) and Sabrina the Teenage Witch (drawn in manga style, in order to cash in on the craze).

thank you inkmonkey for so simply explaining something that I was not getting across well...it was a superb example.


Actually, I opened up the debate to much more. There were several other areas that added in the my first post I wanted to talk about more than just the sound effects and right to left read pages. I think that there is more to the debate than just that one small aspect. I think that that portion of the debate everyone agreed on...it is annoying.

Can we still talk about the other stuff? Not debate, but just discuss the influences from Japan and the direction people have seen webcomics take in the last few years due to that influence. I think that would be an interesting discussion.

I actually think the issue is a whole lot shallower than we're making it out to be. A lot of webmanga has bad storylines, so we've been conditioned to hate that kind of thing. Either that or we're really jaded with anime and manga and don't like to see japanizations cause we feel people who use them are being foolish.

That's my take on this.

I thought this was an excellent post. But it also speaks I think to why people have a problem with Westerners calling their work manga. One is that a new cultural "ingredient" is being added and therefore something new is being created and that should be appreciated rather than derided as some "manga" fans would do to "fake" or imitation manga.

The big one that is being mentioned here and elsewhere is that the manga label and all those how to books essentially contribute to the idea that art is some sort of recipe or formula. That if you can just figure out the right technique you'll be a success. This results in artists who focus too much on style rather than substantial drawing and writing basics and an audience who judges things by how close the work comes to that formula. So you see all these imitation manga comics with the stylistic trappings but they look awful because that's all there is to them. And this is true for any art. It's just that manga is so popular right now, and so uniquell stylized that we are seeing so much of it just like in the 90s comics saw an army of incompetent Image artist clones.

And some just don't like manga.

Once again I'll point out that I dig manga and manga-influenced art. I just see it potentially as a "trap" for artists to fall into that preoccupation with style and technique. But in the end we all like to think we're the artrist that is trully original or concerned with individualism but even alternative and indy comics have derivatives. It's always funny to see someone complaining about the purity of art and then to look at their own work which is just 4th generation Jack Kirby or 3rd generation Jim Lee or some JtHM rip off.

.: JKline :.